Manny Pacquiao's Next Fight: The Fighting, Wounded Pride of the Philippines Has a Serious Choice to Make
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 3:07 AM EST
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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Lance Pugmire of the Los Angeles Times said last night on Twitter that Manny Pacquiao's business manager Michael Koncz reports that the fighter hasn't made any decision on who he'd like to fight next, be it Juan Manuel Marquez for a fourth time or otherwise.
Does that leave the door open for Floyd Mayweather negotiations after all?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Koncz also said that the decision will be up to Pacquiao himself, not Bob Arum: "Bob will advise. This is Manny's decision."
This is going to be something very important to remember: If, indeed, there are no negotiations to face Mayweather, which remains the fight that the vast majority of the paying audience wants to see, we've been told explicitly by Team Pacquiao's Michael Koncz that this is Manny Pacquiao's decision.
One thing I wonder: Is there a possibility that the negative reaction of two straight Las Vegas crowds, for entirely different reasons, is getting to Manny? Manny loves being loved. He loves being the hero, The People's Champion, the exciting fighter who gives us what we want.
The people have been demanding Mayweather vs Pacquiao. And they're growing restless more and more, after every fight.
When Pacquiao cruised past a stink-it-out, old version of "Splenda" Shane Mosley on May 7, the crowd at the MGM booed, and they booed for good reasons. While Mosley deserved the majority of that, and probably was the intended recipient for most, Pacquiao wasn't without fault. He couldn't catch up to him. Couldn't put on a show. And we went into another round of "when will they fight?" for Manny and Floyd, with Pacquiao coming off of a lousy fight that was not the one anyone had asked for in the first place.
[ Related: Floyd Finally Takes the Upper Hand in Ongoing Press Battle ]
Attendance and attention, it seemed, were paid mostly because Manny Pacquiao deserved it. But how much longer?
The Marquez fight elicited a far more consistent, far more emotional reaction. The largely Mexican crowd felt that their man, Juan Manuel Marquez, had pulled what would have been arguably the biggest upset of boxing's new century. Instead, they got a decision that may not deserve to be called "controversial," but can't be described many other ways.
Almost immediately after the fight, Arum stated their intention to pursue a fourth fight with Marquez, and forget about this Mayweather stuff. The same Arum who had spent a couple weeks poo-pooing the idea of Manny negotiating with Mayweather after Floyd announced his return date of May 5, for various increasingly reaching reasons, up to and including Mayweather being a racist who would potentially damage Pacquiao's political career.
I think it's hard to find a whole lot of evidence that supports the belief that Arum wants to make Mayweather vs Pacquiao happen.
But as much as Manny may want Marquez, legitimately for his own pride and to try to convincingly defeat the man who has been his equal three times, he just might be feeling the heat from the criticism surrounding both the decision over Marquez and the steam-gathering thought out there that it's Team Pacquiao, not Team Mayweather, holding up boxing's biggest event.
Manny Pacquiao has never been criticized this way. I'm not suggesting he's fragile and can't deal with it, but rather, that this could be another open wound for his pride. He didn't convince everyone he'd beaten Marquez, and he's losing favor elsewhere, too. And although it may be the harder fight, just signing up to face Floyd Mayweather is the quickest way to assure the fans -- his people -- that he's really their champion.
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Moneywise...
…both fight would not miles apart so I think that this would be a difficult decision. Fans would watch it anyway. I would go Mayweather, then Marquez and if it is still doable Mayweather again.
I would, if I was Floyd, have gone with Manny three years ago
And possibly fought a trilogy by now. And really retired.
But I’m not Floyd.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
No need for a trilogy after you dominated the first fight, Floyd
by Tysox88 on Nov 16, 2011 8:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
hard to say.
There are quite a few reasons why Manny vs. Floyd looks different than Manny vs. JMM, and Floyd vs. JMM. Not all of the reasons favor PBF.
Moneywise both fight would not miles apart
Define “miles”
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 4:31 AM EST up reply actions
supposing pac earns 30M last weekend, he is bound to earn more the next with Marquez which would be not far from what was last mentioned on the potential Mayweather fight.
I said more because the supposedly one sided fight was bought by many how much more if the competitiveness of the two is a sure thing.
I think Manny’s kind of at peak for what he can earn without Floyd, and Floyd without Manny. We’ll have to wait until PPV numbers are in and see what the mood becomes for the fourth fight if it gets serious and all that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 4:46 AM EST up reply actions
Fight Bradley or the winner of Ortiz-Berto and win well. Then look at the landscape and decide.
Get your mojo back before you fight a rematch or go against Floyd. If your mojo says no after the fights I mentioned, retire. Go out with a win and say goodbye.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
with all the money on the table?
maybe not. Even if he loses to Mayweather or JMM on his nect fight he could still fight a nobody after and exit winning, if he wants a win on his last fight.
There are no angels at this moment anymore than there have been in any discussion of these two fighting.
Announcing, via Ellerbe, that they have booked Vegas for Cinco de Mayo is not the same as saying they have send out an offering sheet to Team Pacquiao for a fight. It is posturing as usual; right before a Pacquaio fight.
No where is it stated (by floyd or his Team) that the specific opponent Mayweather is seeking was Pacquiao. If it is now being suggested, that is another matter altogether.
Capturing a coveted date and announcing it was clever but just as clearly intented to provoke. Now had Floyd himself said that after November 12th, we have reserved the place and the date to ‘fight Manny Pacquiao’ that would have been brave…and and out of character.
With his own father predicting a mismatch between a suspected PED user and a trainer confirmed to have distributed and administered PEDs, I am pleasantly surprised they weren’t calling it the Cheater’s Ball.
Floyd is no dummy. He knows that Sonny Liston among others looked at his next opponents last fight (Clay and Henry Cooper) and said of he could knock him down, I can kill him. And look what happened. You do not judge a fighter on his last fight alone.
Plus, Floyd has a conundrum himself. If he fights Manny now (should he try to negotiate), he will be criticized for having wited until everyone saw Manny falter. If he doesn’t continue to make an issue out of PED’s, he well be suspected of not having been serious, only concerned at the prime Manny’s ring prowess. If he makes it an issue, he may not make the fight.
And then there is money. I think therr is a high likelihood that Pacquiao/Marquez officially sold as many or more PPV against a common opponent. And that will have outperformed Mayweather’s last outing against Ortiz That alone will make difficult negotiations all the more difficult.
As for Manny, I thought it obvious that Bradley was already being highlighted and being groomed by TR as a potential opponent, although Pacquaio said not so fast. Arum and TR clearly have plans…but putting him in with Manny would IMO not be the best thing for either man at this point.
Manny is undoubtedly comflicted as he is dissappointed. He believed he would beat the tee shirt off of Marquez back and when he failed to do so, he was left thinking he screwed up…but convinced, wisely or otherwise, that he owed himself and his fans another opportunity to try. I can understand his motivation, especially now, but I think he should and will take his time before making any announcements.
After all, this is a post fight media event, not the normal time when complicated fight decisions are made and brought to contract.
He definitely has hard choices, Mayweather being but one of his issues IMO. The first iis how committed and dedicated he is to remaining the fighter he had been these past years.
I see slipping and I am sure others in his camp see it as well. They should.
Secondly, he has fought full fights against his last four opponents. The wear and tear is adding up. He has a lot of victories but also a lot fighter mileage on him. Four years ago manny Steward said that he anticipated a fighter like Manny would burn out and begin declining by 30!
Well he didn’t get any younger on Saturday..
Mayweather IMO already knew that his next opponent was not going to be Pacquaio. In fact, he still hasn’t outright said so. Nor has Arum for a moment said that Floyd is in Manny’s breadline.
There are a lot…and I mean a lot….of angry and dissppointed Mexican fans who would pay dearly to see their man rematched once again with Manny. And there is a little man with a lot of pride…too much maybe…who would like to oblige them.
We shall see…. but I do not think that the ‘big’ one is on anyone’s agenda.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Nov 16, 2011 4:15 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
If he doesn’t continue to make an issue out of PED’s, he well be suspected of not having been serious, only concerned at the prime Manny’s ring prowess. If he makes it an issue, he may not make the fight.
It should be OK, Arum said if Mayweather is serious about negotiating they’ll drop the defamation suit and everything.
Anyway, I think Manny ought to enjoy the rest of the year and figure out what he wants to do. If they can get it done by mid-January, there’s plenty of time.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 4:33 AM EST up reply actions
But if Floyd signs something before then and doesn’t just give Manny time to stew and think, I can’t really blame Mayweather — Top Rank sent the notice that they wouldn’t be negotiating.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 4:34 AM EST up reply actions
that does not give them reason to try and offer something
which Arum tried very hard on the “2nd negotiation”.
The question is..
Who else is out there for Mayweather? Martinez? If Floyd takes the Martinez fight at 154+, I would be shocked. If he does that, I will never call him out for not stepping up.
No where is it stated (by floyd or his Team) that the specific opponent Mayweather is seeking was Pacquiao. If it is now being suggested, that is another matter altogether.
Capturing a coveted date and announcing it was clever but just as clearly intented to provoke. Now had Floyd himself said that after November 12th, we have reserved the place and the date to ‘fight Manny Pacquiao’ that would have been brave…and and out of character.
Rafael specifically asked Ellerbe about “the little guy” immediately after that quote came out and Ellerbe said that it was Pacquiao.
There are a lot…and I mean a lot….of angry and dissppointed Mexican fans who would pay dearly to see their man rematched once again with Manny. And there is a little man with a lot of pride…too much maybe…who would like to oblige them.Just out of curiosity, where was that pride the last time they fought, when Pacquiao was again seen as much improved and likely to blitz Marquez out and instead snuck away with a narrow decision? Where was that pride when instead of a rematch he instead elected to pick up a trinket against the weakest beltholder at 135?
I would be far more inclined to believe this narrative coming from the Pacquiao camp about wanting to settle scores once and for all and do right by Marquez if they hadn’t twice made him wait around for nearly 4 years and weight chase.
by bachwards on Nov 16, 2011 5:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where was that pride when instead of a rematch he instead elected to pick up a trinket against the weakest beltholder at 135?
I will say this in defense of the third fight not happening sooner, and it’s not me trying to discredit you, but I think there’s a legit argument the time was never quite right.
1. There were concerns that Manny was having trouble making 130 pounds. Given what’s happened after, I’d say those were valid after the second Marquez fight.
2. Marquez did go right up to 135 alongside Manny, even though JMM was NOT having issues making weight (or no one said he was anyway), in order to chase Pacquiao. Marquez then beat Joel Casamayor, the lineal champion, three months after Manny defeated David Diaz, a hell of a nice guy and a weak titleholder, as you say.
3. I can’t blame Manny for taking the Oscar opportunity in December 2008. It was a crazy, wild, totally unexpected thing and the offer of a lifetime. Roach felt Oscar was shot and they could win, and they took the left field offer and it paid off big time. This is the huge turning point that started a chain of events that kept Pacquiao vs Marquez III from happening sooner.
4. After that, Pacquiao vs Hatton at 140 was in demand. So they did that in May 2009, two months and change after Marquez fought and defeated Juan Diaz in the FotY, still at 135.
5. Marquez called out Mayweather, who had ignored a plea from Margarito-bashing Shane Mosley one month prior (I refuse to ever not mention that, because it was the weakest move in Floyd history, IMO), and Mayweather came back. Marquez felt Pacquiao wouldn’t fight him, but Manny did have his plate full at a higher weight at the time. Maybe MP-JMM III should have happened in 2009, but it’s not like Pacquiao was farting around. He beat the lineal 140 pound champ in violent fashion and then took the Cotto fight, as Marquez was lined up against Mayweather two months prior.
6. After Mayweather embarrassed Marquez, it’s not like Marquez was desired by many over 135 pounds anymore. Manny fought Clottey when Floyd-Manny fell apart. Marquez went back to 135 after 10 months off from the Floyd rout and rematched Diaz to get his groove back. At this point, I believe it’s fair to say that Pacquiao vs Marquez III was not that high on a lot of lists. The time for the fight had passed. Marquez, it was believed, could not fight over 135 pounds, and the fight would be a waste of time.
7. Manny fought Margarito. Marquez fought Katsidis. They were at this point three weight classes apart, technically.
8. Manny ran out of opponents. Marquez fight was made for lack of better options, basically. Fight dismissed as mismatch by many. Fight not a mismatch in reality.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 6:04 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t really have much of a dispute with your timeline, though I would note that the Marquez fight was far more desired than the farce with Mosley, and of course feuding promoter bullshit is the only reason it didn’t happen at that point in time. And of course, one could argue that if the Oscar fight was big enough to put Marquez on the backburner, then surely the fight projected at breaking numerous records should be as well.
I understand there were legitimate business-related reasons for the third Marquez fight not happening sooner, but I also think the primary reason for a fourth one to happen now is also likewise more connected to feuding promoter bullshit and business-related reasons (precluding the bigger fight from happening), not anything to do with pride. The risk:reward for a Marquez fight probably still makes more sense from the perspective of Top Rank insofar as Marquez is a promotional free agent (and even an extra $5 million won’t really affect the pot too significantly) and isn’t knocking Pacquiao out at this weight. I perfectly understand that a desire to “right a wrong” exists and that many fans would like to see a fourth fight, but I feel like the priority being given to this argument by the people in Pacquiao’s camp is largely in bad faith.
I would note that the Marquez fight was far more desired than the farce with Mosley, and of course feuding promoter bullshit is the only reason it didn’t happen at that point in time.
Yes, agreed.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 6:33 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty good timeline, but...
Marquez called out Mayweather, who had ignored a plea from Margarito-bashing Shane Mosley one month prior (I refuse to ever not mention that, because it was the weakest move in Floyd history, IMO)
From one loooooong time boxing fan to another, that’s not completely accurate. Mayweather and Mosley has extensive ‘ebb and flow’ type history, where Mayweather would call Mosley out, and Mosley would decline. It wasn’t as simple as ‘I am afraid of this guy’, it was more of ‘He has too much to gain and I have everything to lose’ type mentality IMO. Heck, people who paid attention to interviews made in publications knew this, but it was when Mosley knocked out Vargas in their second match that Merchant pressed the issue about fighting Mayweather and Shane came up with four different excuses to why he wouldn’t commit to the fight. There is video evidence to all of this.
Fast-forward to after the Margarito fight is when he finally starts calling out Mayweather and Mayweather brushes him off and goes into semi-retirement. In their sit down with Kellerman Mayweather made clear why he wasn’t going to jump to Shane’s very late acceptance of a challenge years old and Shane knew what was up.
Which leaves Shane to go on a World wide stalking tour for all things Manny (Shane was this close to getting a restraining order filed against him—-I kid about the restraining order a little, but Shane was stalking Manny and Freddie wasn’t having none of it).
Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses. --The Knockout Mechanism.
The way JMM bulked up for this fight clearly fooled Raoch and Manny. Man, he looked massive across the chest
like Vinng Paz did. Angel “Memo” Heredia.has gotten a pass so far, but U’m not yet satisfied. I’m not saying KMM was juiced. But I am saying “Memo” may have been the diffrence and when a guy like “Memo” is the diffrence, I take pause.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
You just made me..
… sad, but I see your point. The timing of the mayo cinco reservation is typically them. And as pointed in other blog, the date and location being decided already by them leaves no room for Arum to well, make decision about it.
It’s too early, but the way most boxing blogs especially this one is having hyper hits/activity and everyone is eagerly waiting.
Then why does Manny always defer to Arum?
Even post fight he was saying that it was up to his promoter. Be your own man Manny and say who you want to fight. Don’t get on camera and throw it back to Arum.
PAC
Team Pac hasn’t faced adversity like this in awhile and they’re reeling. They need to settle down till Marquez decides his future. Unless they’re greedy, why even bother with toxic Mayweather, they have other options. Pac’s next fight doesn’t need to be a superfight. He needs to get back in the gym and resolve some of the flaws exposed by Marquez to restore his confidence. No need to panic, they won the fight as confirmed by Compubox.
MARQUEZ
Dude, Marquez corner blew it in the last 2 rounds in which he coasted a bit. It’s the wrong impression to leave when you’re the challenger in a close fight. Unfortunately, this fight was real close and we have to look at compubox
He didn't blow it in the last two rounds
That is just not a factual statement. Look at the judges score cards again
Unfortunately, this fight was real close and we have to look at compubox
WHY? The ringside judges don’t look at CompuBox.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
HMM
Yeah, you guys make valid points. I must admit my impression of the last rounds is subjective. One would hope the stats from compubox remove some of the that subjectivity. Lets face it , neither camp is satisfied with the result. Is anybody? I’m a big fan of both fighters.
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