Pacquiao vs Marquez: Arum Address Steroids Concern on Conference Call
by Scott Christ on Nov 2, 2011 1:27 PM EDT
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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Today's media conference call with Manny Pacquiao, Freddie Roach, and Bob Arum was horrible. I say that not to bag on the idea of conference calls. Sometimes they can be fun. Sometimes informative. Sometimes it's just nice to sit and listen.
But with audio issues making Manny and Freddie very hard to understand this afternoon, little of note happened. Manny offered stock answers when you could make them out at all, and Freddie spoke a little tougher, as he usually does, promising that "payback is a bitch" for upcoming November 12 opponent Juan Manuel Marquez.
The elephant in the room was the brewing controversy regarding Marquez's strength and conditioning coach, Angel "Memo" Heredia, who was outed by Victor Conte in the past few days as a former government informant and steroids dealer.
The first time the question came up, Manny stumbled to offer an unsurprising "no comment" response.
The second time it came up, Arum took charge. This was also no surprise. Nor was the tone in which he addressed the question: Dismissive, arrogant, and angry.
Angry that anyone would have a serious question. One that wasn't about Manny's appearance on Jimmy Kimmel, or his Hennessy endorsement, or his political career and gosh darn, just how DOES Manny deal with all these DISTRACTIONS?
"I think it would behoove all of the press to stop dealing in generalities. The fighter can hire anyone he wants to be a trainer," Arum began. It was already clear where he was going to go.
"There was a period of time where this guy dealt in steroids. But that's old, old news."
Arum went on to argue that strength and conditioning coaches no longer had a need for steroids, or other illegal performance-enhancing drugs.
"You can achieve all of the benefits that you used to achieve with steroids with natural supplements. Without any risk of illegality.
"The last thing they would do is deal in illegal substances."
It was an old trick that Arum and other promoters -- but especially Arum, as it's sort of a signature tactic for him -- have employed for years. It's less a sneaky lawyer's trick than it is schoolyard pressuring.
"Hey, guys. This is dumb. Anyone who thinks this way is dumb, so don't think this way. You want to be smart, don't you?"
He might as well have offered a half-empty pack of Camels to the foolish and naïve kids on the line.
And then he ended it with the most debatable line of all.
"The steroid problem is fading into the past," he concluded.
Bob Arum is a great promoter. He's one of those guys who can sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves. But when he's pressed on matters like this, it's always the same scare tactic. Always the same bullying. Always the same attempt to dismiss, to shuck and jive, and to brush under the rug a serious question.
I said earlier today that Team Pacquiao needed to address the question firmly to avoid skepticism from those in the media, from fans, and from those who already doubt the legitimacy of the sport, who believe that the "steroid problem" is anything but fading.
Well, we got an answer. It was firm. But it wasn't one that will turn back the skeptics.
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Boxing doesn't care about PEDs
And never has.
In the days of black and white boxing, stimulants were sometimes given to fighters MID-FIGHT!
I doubt anything can or will be done about PEDs in boxing. Frankly, I wouldn’t even care if they allowed roids (and pot!).
But that’s probably just the old time pro wrestling/PRIDE fan in me.
The big scary question for these guys is: Who is gonna pay for this testing?
Arum and crew probably have the names of the writers who asked these roid questions. They won’t be invited back.
Hey, if both Pac and JMM are juicing now, maybe this third fight will be the best one!
The big scary question for these guys is: Who is gonna pay for this testing?
This is only a scary question for the guys trying to make a name for themselves or the over the hill guys trying to hang on, who basically fight for whatever they can get. Based on the costs listed by WADA, year round testing with 10 random tests of every test available under the sun, distributed through out a year would cost on average $20 K per fighter. For most established fighters that is close to being pocket change, since it is only a fraction of what they make per fight. Besides, I would think any decent tax lawyer would be able to deduct those expenses for tax pursposes from money the would have lost anyway. If testing is not taking place, money is not the issue.
whole year test
infact id agree to this year long test… wonder what floyd jr’s doing in his 16month layoff inside his mansion? then comes out all the sudden ready for a fight… if pac is accused of juicing with no basic evidence then floyd should be measured the same. in fact both started at age 16 in same weight class but floyd jr came 3 years earlier than pacquiao to lightweight and he settled with welter while pac gradually came up to welter later. marquez grew big in 3 months time, thats why the boxing community is wondering how he did it, and the fact that his physical trainer is known to have used steroids to his boxers. i challenge the boxing expects and everyone to have a year long testing to pacquiao, floyd jr and marquez. i think thats fair enough.
You know, all the reformist scream for a “level playing field,” but if every one is using, then hell, that’s a level playing field. This discussion tends to induce bile for me because it is a circular one that has no solution. Just fight and stfu.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Pretty much
And hey, if JMM and co. think Pac is getting a boost from the juice (as many do… maybe ‘most’), he did the right thing, imo.
This just makes Floyd actually look like the good guy, (in some boxing fans’ eyes anyways).
Manny, I think its time to speak for yourself.
Plus, since these are two of boxing’s most liked boxers, illegal drugs are now acceptable? I know i come under-fire for supporting FMJ, but c’mon guys… the hypocrisy is just too much to bare.
It’s pretty shocking to me how dismissive people are with the issue of PEDs.
In other sports, mostly in Europe, literally millions and millions of EUROs / dollars are invested and hundreds of people are employed to fight PEDs.
You would not believe the huge investments that are being made in top of the line research to detect PEDs and just the fact that most athletes manage to beat these tests just shows that the PED producing industry is even larger and better funded.
At this point most athletes found out to be using PEDs are not detected through tests, but through good old fashioned police work: stalking and raiding private training facilities.
I am only saying this to underline the fact that I am absolutely convinced that athletes will try as much as they can to cheat and in a sport like boxing where there is virtually no attempt to test them, they have all the more reason to go all out.
You shouldn’t minimize this if it’s a sport you appreciate and care for. Did you enjoy Brandon Rios – Miguel Acosta? Soto – Antillon? Jorge Arce – Wilfredo Vazquez Jr.?
What if I were to tell you that they were all lies? That maybe not the best fighter won, but the one who used better stimulants.
Just because everybody is using does NOT make it a level playing field, it’s not like there’s only one drug out there and it has the same effect on everyone.
There are drugs that actually help a fighter maintain his consciousness even in the face of really hard blows. What if what we call “good chin” is simply chemicals? You cannot possibly say “just let them use whatever they want and let them fight already”. Athletes HAVE DIED before as a result of overuse of PEDs. If a fighter uses PEDs, even legally, and loses, his first instinct will be to use more, this would get really REALLY dangerous very fast.
Plus, the one argument which I feel is strongest is : this is BOXING. People can get killed. What if a boxer pumps himself up full of chemicals and then goes into the ring and kills or maims his opponent? This is nothing to play with. A lot of boxers are never the same after a brutal beating they took. Cotto was never the same after Margarito and blames this on illegal handwraps. How would PEDs leading to a beating of a lifetime not be the same as loaded handwraps?
by Radu on Nov 2, 2011 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I understand that Arum is being flip, arrogant, etc about this issue, but that’s nothing new. And I do think that the sport (and sports in general) could do with more sunlight on the P.E.D. issue.
That said, I’m not sure what question Team Pacquiao needs to “firmly address.” I mean, what does Pacquiao have to say here? What could he say that would help the situation? Is he supposed to hurl an unsubstantiated accusation at Marquez? Wouldn’t make much sense, considering he just got done suing people for saying the same sort of thing about him. And if he just launched into some generic speech about the evils of P.E.D’s really change anyone’s opinion about anything?
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
All I’m saying is he’s leaving himself open for further questions, something they clearly take seriously considering he sued the last bunch. Even if he just said “I trust Marquez isn’t cheating,” I think that would be better than, “Um, no comment.”
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I guess you’re right that “"I trust Marquez isn’t cheating,” sounds less shady than “no comment.” But what if that’s a lie? What if he thinks he taking something . Or shit, what if he knows he is, and agreed to keep his mouth shut about it? That’s a scary thought, but there’s no telling how far down the rabbit hole this stuff goes.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
The funny thing about reality is...
It finds away to bring the truth out; maybe next week, next year, or 10-20 years later we will find out the truth at some point.
I mean, tearing open the P.E.D. debate in Boxing is a little like opening Pandora’s box, and many folks wouldn’t much like what comes flying out. There are certain fighters that are regularly worshipped as “All Time Greats” in boxing circles that wouldn’t pass the smell test on P.E.D’s, and I’m not just talking the usual subjects or just steroids. I’m talking cocaine, weed and other stimulants, diuretics, EPO, all kinds of shit.
Ever wonder how Sweet Pea had such amazing speed? In his prime Holyfield seemed to be made of 100% solid muscle? How did Roy Jones manage his journey up the scale? Once these questions start getting asked, that’s when everyone says “Uh-oh, time to put the lid back on the box and nail it shut.” Though I don’t really agree with it, I sense what Bossman means above when he prefers to look the other way.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Though I don’t really agree with it, I sense what Bossman means above when he prefers to look the other way.
Me too.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Unlikely weed is going to get anyone killed. Make them lose the fight maybe, nothing worse. Least of my worries. Don’t like souped up boxers in a state where more damage than is natural—goes on all the time, no doubt, but still not good. I don’t want to look under the rock either, but—too dangerous not too, imo.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Make them lose the fight maybe, nothing worse.
Not true. This is a big misunderstanding about weed, because of it’s “peace-loving hippie” reputation. Weed is a stimulant, and definitely a performance enhancer for fighting. Anyone who’s ever been in a fight while stoned can attest to that.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I’ve decided that PEDs should be made generally available to professional athletes, although I realize that this will create a growth market to amateurs and children.
Innovative illicit technologies tend to outstrip preventive measures, because they have inspirational or seed funding, and this is because the money to be made is significant. Suppressive technologies and measures are reactive, and can’t anticipate the next challenge will be.
Dealers (in a variety of senses of the word) in prohibited materials, including the very lucrative areas of pharmaceuticals and computer technologies, are not stupid; they are often highly trained in these areas, and for whatever reason are motivated more by profit than research. I have known a number of people like this, who were extremely good research scientists.
Prohibitionism has not worked. With alcohol, it was a disaster, and inspired an underground industry the consequences of which are well-known; with marijuana, it has been a joke. In short, there was a market for these things, and a consumer base. And most importantly, the monetary reward was significant. To me, and only me, this sounds like PEDs in sports. Detection will never outstrip invention.
If the public likes sports this much, make PEDs legal and available to all, under medical administration.
What this policy will sacrifice is the impression of sports that I grew up with in the 1950s, which was that anyone, from anywhere, could achieve something by being good at something. This “something” might be art, math, writing, sports, or anything else, but it was entirely up to the individual and his or her drive and native talent.
Part of this was the notion, and that’s all it was, that you could even be a good athlete is you tried hard, and had good natural talent.
Maybe we should let that idea go; do what you can, with everything available.
I guess crow is on the menu for many thanksgiving dinners this year...
I’m not so willing to accept PEDs into any sport. Especially, since sooo many athletes’ names and livelihoods have been destroyed because of it. Now the truth my come out that the sports latest golden boy may have cheated his way to the top and since he smiles a lot and has a haircut like Bruce Lee we are willing to let it go?
I call bologna, bullshit, and bullocks on all accounts.
How did we forget what happened in the Aaron Pryor / Alexis Argüello fight? And Panama Lewis was seen as an asshole for years after that fight, probably still is. I mean how are we gonna keep lowering the standards of professional boxing? If that’s the case why check gloves for plaster? Why penalize for headbutts if its just a way to win fights?
Heredia is JMM’s strength trainer, not Manny Pacquiao’s.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
The way Manny’s camp handled the conference call interview was suspect. They didn’t have any stand on whether JMM may be using PEDs or if PEDs are in the boxing world. The fact that they have this ambiguous view on PEDs is very suspect, especially since they were accused of using them as well.
hey didn’t have any stand on whether JMM may be using PEDs or if PEDs are in the boxing world.
What should they say? That’s a serious question (I asked it to Scott, too). I mean, what would be the satisfactory response? Should they accuse Marquez of doping without proof? Should they say “we believe him?” What if they don’t believe him, but don’t have any proof? In that case, “no comment” probably is the best answer.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Scott answered....
They could have taken the high road and said, “no I don’t think he is.” But they kind of went in a lil more ‘we must protect ourselves defense.’ (which probably is the most defense I’ve seen Manny use) It seemed like they but themselves up on trial in a way, even though they were talking about JMM.
What if they think he is? How is it the high road to lie about it, and say they think he isn’t?
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Well that’s on them. I dunno their actual motives, but it seems that they don’t want any part of this conversation.
If they think he is, guess what…. Maybe they should test him….hmmmmm? But that makes them look bad, because ‘you know who’ is already doing that and they look like hypocrites in the long run.
Talking about this stuff in public is what sank the fight with Mayweather fight to begin with. If they have suspicions, I think they should air them behind closed doors not in “conference calls” or whatever. Just my opinion.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
What if they think he is?
I think here is where it lies the problem, that at least in one interview Ariza said he doesn’t know how Marquez got so big so fast, which are almost the exact words that the Mayweathers and Mayeather fans used against Pacquiao. It would have been nice for them to clarify their position, either say we don’t think the is doing anything improper and move on, or if they do suspect something then take Marquez on his offer to be tested. Hinting one thing yet not acting on it does give a bad impression and I say this a big Pacquiao fan.
Yeah, but Ariza is the most big-mouthed guy I’ve ever seen in my life. He always seems to be talking ten miles of shit, and he’s not the only guy in that camp whose mouth seems to run faster then their brains. Running that camp must be like trying to herd cats.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Agree 100% with everything you just said, however, for as long as he is part of team Pacquiao, anything he says will be used against team Pacquiao as it should be, the same way anything that Biden says is used against Obama. If a memember of the team goes of the rails with his/her mouth, the least the head of the team must do is come out and clearly state what the official position is, otherwise they leave the door open for people to assume that anything said by anyone in the team is the official position, whether that is true or not.
The only problem is that Arum will naturally try to be that guy. Then, your number one public relations guy and source of information is… Bob Arum.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
If Marquez is really using HGH to prepare for this fight, it’s a good example of what I’ve been saying for years. Unlike other sports stars, who don’t have to worry about making weight, boxers use steroids and HGH to compete in higher weight classes… not to turn them into lethal punchers.
I know there were a of of us here who figured this fight would be a bad mismatch because of how soft, fat and slow Marquez has looked above 140 lbs (frankly, he looked a little pudgy as a lightweight, too). The idea here is would be to climb into a weight class without being suicidally underweight or too fat. Marquez is a small 38 year old guy who is fighting more than fifteen pounds over his best weight. The rationalization for using would be simple: in his opinion, he’d be evening the odds and making a better fight of it. I could see an agreement being made behind the scenes for something like that.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Jrok is right on.....
Why should PAC discuss steroids 10 days before the fight? So more viewers can give up on boxing and spend their dollars on UFC instead?
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