Kirkland vs Angulo: Analyzing the War from Cancun
Kory Kitchen checks in this morning with a running commentary of Saturday's fight between James Kirkland and Alfredo Angulo. Go inside his mind! It doesn't have Zelda Fire.
After watching this past Saturday's HBO main event between James Kirkland and Alfredo Angulo many random thoughts came to my mind. Here they are about everything from the round of the year to feeling guilty about taking pleasure in someone's pain:
- Tremendous comeback by Kirkland in that 1st round (easily round of the year). He may not have answered questions about his chin, but there is certainly no doubt about the man's heart.
- That said, I think that some people are overrating the fight a little bit. The 1st round was pure epic, but the rest of the fight was essentially a one-sided beatdown.
- Angulo looked very undisciplined completely going for broke in the first round, but I can't really blame him. He thought, like I thought when Kirkland went down, that it would be a quick night.
- For better or worse, this is why I love boxing so much. Without reducing this to a bickering discussion of other "combat sports", Kirkland likely would not have had a chance to prove his machismo after that knockdown if it had taken place under mma rules. Angulo would have pounced, landed a few vicious head shots while his opponent lay flat, and the referee would pull him off. True, boxing has certainly more long-term health issues due to this, but one doesn't think about long-term health if he becomes a professional fighter.
- Who else thought Angulo looked like a mirror-image of Juan Manuel Marquez in there? Ok, all jokes aside it probably isn't a bad thing that Angulo is with Nacho Beristein. Hopefully Beristein, easily one of the most respected trainers in the game, can make him a little more disciplined and polished technically. That said, I hope he doesn't try to transform Angulo into a boxer-type after this loss. Angulo is who he is: a rough, aggressive fighter that will beat people by wearing them down and suffocating them via pressure. Panchito Bojado, once a blue-chip prospect many years ago, suffered an upset loss early in his career. He then changed trainers to Floyd Mayweather Sr. Mayweather, the self-proclaimed greatest trainer in the world, attempted to transform Bojado into more of a boxer that moved around the ring and scored from the outside. It didn't work because that was not what Bojado really was. He was a naturally aggressive boxer-puncher (emphasis on the puncher). Mayweather had it in his mind that every boxer could box in the same style as his son or his other famous fighter, Oscar de la Hoya. Angulo is the kind of guy that Steve Kim had in mind when he said, "Thank God for Mexican fighters." Let's keep it that way.
- Of course, now the question becomes about what's next for both fighters. For Angulo it is likely a little vacation time to rest up his body and brain from the beatdown he received. When he does return I wouldn't be surprised to see a soft touch before he fights another contender.
- Kirkland is another story. In another example of how just one fight can change so much about the way we view a man (think Victor Ortiz against Andre Berto or, well, Kirkland against Nobuhiro Ishida for the opposite effect), Kirkland's stock has been soaring like Microsoft in the ‘80s. Gabriel Montoya of MaxBoxing.com tweeted that Kirkland is now, "arguably the most marketable black fighter in boxing". Floyd Mayweather may have something to say about that, but that leads directly to my next topic.
- How wild would it be if Kirkland's next opponent would be "Money May" himself? Granted, the fight would have to happen at 154, and is very unlikely to occur but stranger things have happened. Both are promoted by Golden Boy, and have polar-opposite fighting styles. Style-wise it would be equivalent of Ali-Frazier at junior middleweight. More importantly, it would be Ali-Frazier personality-wise too. In the build-up to the fight, Mayweather would talk a ton of smack and flaunt his riches as is his custom. Kirkland, on the other hand, would be the tough, no-nonsense, hard hat-wearing common man persona.
- Who would be the biggest star of a Mayweather-Kirkland 24/7? Ann Wolfe. When it comes to soundbites, Wolfe can hang with the best of ‘em. Also, her story is probably even more fascinating than Kirkland's. From being homeless while living under a tree to her won boxing career, her life is a documentary waiting to happen. However, the largest impact of her addition to the series would be the simple fact that she is a female boxing trainer. The mainstream media would have a field day with this.
- Finally, we shouldn't take pleasure in other people's discomfort, but I get a special kick out of Michael Buffer looking ticked-off about the mic problem.
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I think that some people are overrating the fight a little bit. The 1st round was pure epic, but the rest of the fight was essentially a one-sided beatdown.
Totally agree.
Kirkland likely would not have had a chance to prove his machismo after that knockdown if it had taken place under mma rules.
I disagree. There are plenty instances of MMA fights where a fighter gets knocked down and weathers the storm despite ground and pound and strikes. See the Kongo-Barry fight or the second Edgar-Maynard fight as examples of knocked down fighters coming back to win.
Matt Hughes vs. Frank Trigg 2
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Tim Sylva vs. Andrei Arlovski 2
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I’m not saying it’s impossible to get off the canvas in mma fights because it obviously is. I’m just saying that if Angulo was allowed to continue throwing bombs on Kirkland when he went down that he would have got a stoppage. I think Kirkland was fairly out of it for a brief spell. Feel free to disagree, and it’s all completely hypothetical.
by Kory Kitchen on Nov 8, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
You can’t say that with certainty. He could have easily pulled guard or used upkicks. He was fairly lucid during the KD and recovered well. Like you said, all hypothetical.
Exactly, learn the sport before commenting guys!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
My last comment was a response to CYKE, b/c he talked about ground options for a downed MMA fighter, doing what he said, pulling guard or kicking to recover, perhaps scrambling back up to the feet if they so choose or keeping it on the ground to buy time or change the pace of the fight. Most of you have never seen any of the MMA fights that were mentioned.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Agree 100% here
You could have stuck a fork in Kirkland immediatley after the KD. Great recovery skills
by Sweet science on Nov 8, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think hindsight is always 100%, to this day, no one has knocked down or knocked out Angulo that I know of, and probably no one else could have (can you imagine Cotto margarito, martinez, vera, lara, williams, mora or anyone else at 154 denting that man?). Kirkland won b/c he’s a beast, and despite the “one sided beatdown” theory, I think he’s the only one who would have gotten off the canvas and has the strength to do what he did…
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
What is the one-sided beatdown theory? Im giving Kirkland a ton of credit for the win, and I think he administered a one-sided beatdown in rounds 2-5.
by Kory Kitchen on Nov 8, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
I just feel you guys are underrating the fight in retrospect. No need to get defensive.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Son say the guys telling people to “go learn the sport”.
Get off your high horse.
It was a 1 round fight. Round of the Year contender.
The fight as a whole turned out to be one sided.
I agree that after the first round it was a one sided beatdown, but it is was still pretty compelling. It was pretty obvious halfway through the second round that Angulo was not going to get a second wind, which to his credit Roy Jones pretty much called.
Not an all time classic, but I’m not going to crap on it either. I have watched John Ruiz
Nobody will read this and care and why should they?
It’s probably in my top ten for the year, but it’s not in my top five.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
That’s probably how it is for me too. Kirkland-Angulo felt like going to a movie in theater that you were really looking forward to, and when you left the theater you were blown away. Then when you take the emotion out of it and rent it at home it seems not quite as amazing after the initial buzz has died down (Inception was like that for me last year). I think it was an excellent fight (mostly due to the 1st round), but i feel it’s more top 10 than top 5 as well.
Thank you, Matt. Insulting me by saying “go learn the sport” is the very definition of getting defensive. It’s just my opinion. An opinion is neither inherently right nor wrong. Anything could have happened. That was just my best guess as to what may have happened if Angulo could have hit his downed opponent.
I enjoyed the fight at first, but once it was clear that Angulo wasn’t going to win i just wanted to see Kirkland put him out of his misery.
I don’t like to see a fighter who looks like he has no chance of winning just getting beat down.
Not that i blame the ref for not stopping it sooner, because Angulo has a massive heart and was in front of his home people, but i know i was glad when it finally ended.
That type of fight can ruin fighters and give then long term brain damage.
I agree with those who say Angulo probably punched himself out, but he also got tagged a lot as a result of that, and it was just something that i found a bit hard to watch as it neared the end.
As i said on a different thread, imo, Angulo was a bit too brave for his own good.
Good fight but not a truly great fight, imo.
Great round though.
Also, when true warriors are fighting you never know if they are gonna make an unbelievable comeback, like Arturo Gatti used to do regularly.
This is another reason why i understood the ref letting it go on.
I felt the ref did a fine job. If Angulo was an old man or didn’t have a puncher’s chance I could have seen it stopped sooner, but he showed he had the power to hurt Kirkland already. He gave Angulo the benefit of the doubt which was appropriate. It says good things about Kirkland that he never allowed Angulo to garner any momentum after the 1st round.
I said on another thread
Kirkland should be applauded for not giving Angulo a sniff of getting back into the fight. Really dominated the fight after the first two minutes
The ref couldn’t have done a lot better IMO
by Sweet science on Nov 8, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
After R3, it was clear to me that Angulo was not going to pull a Gatt, because he was clearly out of shape and rusty. No doubt about it, he was still fighting back, so I guess I’m not peeved with the ref—he’d have been pilloried if he’d stopped it, but not by me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I don’t like to see a fighter who looks like he has no chance of winning just getting beat down
Me neither. Round 1 was terrific, the rest was one-sided, and not matter how hard both fighters fight in that situation, I don’t like it, and so—Round of the Year, probably. But the rest of the fight doesn’t even make top 10 for me, just turned into a showcase for Kirkland, and was too potentially damaging to Angulo for me to really enjoy. Not that I turned it off, mind you, too hypocritical for that, but it got really disturbing.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Callin’ me son? 1.) Under the context, I said learn the sport, the sport being “MMA”. Do you guys know what pulling guard is? Or how a fighter in MMA recovers after a knockdown? I never said you guys didn’t know boxing, but you don’t know MMA. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact, and it’s okay because it’s a boxing website/publication. 2.) We can differ in opinions about how epic or important or competitive the fight or rounds were, or how significant it is in the sport, weight class, or the fight of the year, but yes, taken out of context, people on here don’t know MMA and yes you guys were and still are reacting defensively. And thanks for ganging up on me too, you guys must feel very manly.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Before you get any more bent out of shape I think he meant to say “so” not “son”. Either way, you don’t get what I meant about opinion, but that’s ok.
by Kory Kitchen on Nov 9, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
It was an uninformed opinion, and you failed to acknowledge other people’s comments about MMA. I’m actually not the one upset, I could care less. It’s just sad to hear pple discuss MMA who don’t even follow the sport, and then get upset when pple call them out on it.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Again, I never said it is impossible for a fallen mma fighter to defend himself and/or get back to his feet. You just assumed that. It doesn’t take mma knowledge or even boxing knowledge to think that a fighter would be knocked too dizzy to properly defend himself. That’s all I was thinking.
by Kory Kitchen on Nov 10, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Good article, good points. I really enjoy “notes and thoughts” type of posts. You often find a few you agree with and a few you disagree with – good basis for conversation.
Last Saturday’s fight lived up to the hype. And that’s why I don’t feel it was over rated. Kirkland kicked tail and took a name with it! As a fellow Texan I loved it. That said a fight with Mayweather would be awesome. I wouldn’t expect a slugfest and I don’t think Kirkland breaks down mentally either. Could be a great one.
by RRod806 on Nov 8, 2011 12:29 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Angulo is a tough dude, and fun to watch, but he has a major, giant weakness: he is SLOOOOW. He wasn’t just slow against Kirkland because he was punched out; dial up the YouTube of his fight against Cintron and then watch the first 30 seconds of the Kirkland fight again and you will see one slow-as-hell fighter.
Landing a big bomb against Kirkland was, in hindsight, really Angulo’s only chance. In exchanges Kirkland is always going to get the better of Angulo because he is just as strong as Perro but far, far quicker.
People didn't think he had to land a big bomb
Just Land. Everybody thought his chin sucked remember
by Sweet science on Nov 8, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
It is for sure up there for my favorite fight of the year. It felt tense for rounds 1-4, it felt like Angulo could still somehow KO Kirkland up ’til that point. Plus it was a solid upset. Go back and read some of the comments made here when this fight was first announced…you all were dogging Kirkland horribly.
Some good analysis here, but you lost me with the Ali/Foreman comparison. Even if you ignore the skill/accomplishment difference and focus only on style, I don’t see it. Mayweather’s style is quite different than Ali’s. I see little similarity aside from the overall high skill level. Foreman/Kirkland is a stretch too, when you think about the chin Foreman had.
But I agree this fight lacked the sustained action and high interest of some of the very best fights this year. ROTY for R1? I can totally see that. But not a serious FOTY contender. Personally, I was intrigued even after it was clear Kirkland was dominant, but the fact that the fight peaked so early took away some of the drama. I liked Rodriguez/Wolak better for sure. Also Khan/Maidana, Morales/Maidana, Ortiz/Berto maybe, probably Arce/Vasquez, Herrera/Provodnikov perhaps. There are a couple others Scott has recommended that I haven’t gotten around to watching yet.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
I think Arce/Vasquez is an underrated fight. Probably due to being on the undercard of a big ppv. Arce also had a classic with Hussein Hussein on the undercard of Morales-Pac I. I wish he would have been showcased more frequently on big ppv undercards during his career. Couldn’t have hurt his poularity or the overall value of the card.

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