Khan vs Peterson: DC Commission Speaks Out on Controversy
by Scott Christ on Dec 13, 2011 6:54 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Lem Satterfield of RingTV.com spoke with DC boxing commission chairman Scottie Irving about some of the controversy stemming from Saturday night's fight. Read the whole interview, because it's important stuff to read, but here are a couple of clipped quotes:
"I said that I wanted them to listen to the referee. I stressed that point a lot. I just think that maybe Khan didn't really pay attention to that point that we were trying to stress at the commission about that.
"I also had a conversation with Khan's trainer, Freddie Roach, about elbows and pushing. It was just a one-on-one conversation between us about that. ... I had that conversation after that workout because I had seen one or two things from Khan during that workout with some elbows from Khan."
Other fighters have expressed a belief that Khan was finally just called on something he does all the time. Paulie Malignaggi, who fought Khan in 2010, had this to say at the press conference:
"I don't have a problem with it. I fought Amir Khan. I think he gets away with pushing you down all the time, pushing you off. So I don't have a problem with it. I thought finally someone did something about it. He knocked out Zab Judah by holding him down with one hand and hitting him to the body with the other hand. So it's just a situation where I think (the ref) did his job."
In other words, did referee Joe Cooper make bad calls, or did he just make calls other referees won't make? Should we go along with the status quo of ignoring certain things that are against the rules, or applaud a referee who takes a stand against the practices?
More Khan-Peterson Coverage From Bad Left Hook
Recap | Oli Goldstein's Breakdown | Tim Bradley a Winner
As for referee Joe Cooper, Irving says it wasn't DC that appointed the Virginia-based official:
"Well, it was an IBF/WBA fight, so they picked the referee. Did they pick a local referee for their air-travel expenses because they evaluated it or assessed it, then that's what they did.
"We didn't pick the referee. They did. They picked the judges. They brought in judges that we have never seen before. So their guys judged the fight and refereed the fight. That wasn't of our doing."
I'm repeating myself here, and I apologize for that, but I truly believe two things:
- The deductions were such that they invite criticism, gnashing of teeth, and controversy, but they weren't totally unfair. If nothing else, Khan should have never put himself into position to get the second point taken.
- The referee was overmatched at this level in certain ways I do agree with that. He was consistently out of position and had trouble keeping up with the pace. This wasn't exactly a Jimmy Lange fight.
One doesn't cancel out the other.
But if the IBF appointed him, that's the IBF's doing, and Team Khan should speak with them rather than the DC commission.
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Just watched the fight again. Khan was hard warned. He pushed the next round even after Cooper said this is your last warning. He didn’t lose a point that round he lost it the next round. After that he kept pushing. The reason was Cooper made them fight out of the clinches and Khan doesn’t know how so it was either get hit or push. It’s really not that much controversy, between the headlocks and the pushing down of the head two points sounds about right.
by tacklerford on Dec 13, 2011 7:17 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
In other words, did referee Joe Cooper make bad calls, or did he just make calls other referees won’t make? Should we go along with the status quo of ignoring certain things that are against the rules, or applaud a referee who takes a stand against the practices?
This is right, to me. I watched the fight after the fact on a Russian broadcast, and I heard Cooper warn Khan.
More to the point, there seems to be some sort of “wink wink nudge nudge” approach to behavior that is clearly against established rules,. In particular, I’ve seen innumerable fights over the past 50+ years in which referees have repeatedly warned without acting, or have simply not warned at all, or only sporadically, irrespective of a fighter’s behavior.
I think Cooper was right, Khan’s cash cow value as “property” notwithstanding. I wish more referees would just lower the boom on any and all fighters that don’t obey instructions, and the basic rules of boxing.
Yeah, I mean you’re clearly on one side or the other regarding the point deductions. I know pushing is a part of the game, but personally I thought his pushing was more due to frustration than simply creating space. Cooper clearly warned Khan several times before taking a point away. Khan even blatantly pushed after the second deduction, which was evidence to me that it was being done out of frustration vs. strategy. Also, most refs have different styles of controlling the action, and fighters have to adjust to that, just as much as they have to adjust to their opponent. Khan adjusted to neither.
As for the skill level of Cooper, well, he was clearly out of his league here and couldn’t keep up with the pace of the fight. But as far as his rulings go, I thought they were fair.
really out of his league
The reason he had to call the first time Peterson went down a slip was because he got his legs tangled up with Peterson’s when he was stepping back. He wasn’t ready for the speed of this level of fight.
by tacklerford on Dec 13, 2011 8:56 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Compared to Russel Mora, Cooper did an okay job. His calls regarding the deductions were questionable but hardly a disgrace. That said, I think that it was almost apparent from his final instructions that Cooper was a bit in over his head.
However, I will state that I liked his decision to just let them keep fighting on the inside. Though he was off the pace so much that I’m not sure he had much choice at times.
Nobody will read this and care and why should they?
the thing about being referee is you get killed in the press way more if
you deduct a point then if you don’t. So if you want to avoid making news, make very very few point deductions. It’s unfair to refs.
I think most would agree that Khan deserved at least a point taken off. However, if the ref had taken off 0 points the complaints would be less bad – yet it would have actually effected this fight idenitcally.
Fouls have to be so egregious (mares-agbeko for instance) that people complain about the ref not docking points as much as docking too many points. I’m not saying its good or bad, just that it is what it is.
by journeyintosound on Dec 13, 2011 8:55 PM EST reply actions
Joe Cooper is from the DC area, right? If so he probably never should have been chosen for the job. I’m sure he’s a decent guy, but he’s human, anybody could show favortism to their local guy.
Anyway, pushing is illegal, but so is clinching and holding which is why we’ve never seen a fighter do that before. This was more or less a jay walking type of offense by Khan, and I personally feel the deductions were goofy and Khan won the fight.
A lot of you feel Peterson got a solid win and that’s ok, I’m not going to insult you for thinking so.
Joe Cooper is from the DC area, right? If so he probably never should have been chosen for the job.
I don’t know why they didn’t bring in an international ref — other than the chairman probably being right that the IBF didn’t want to spend money on airfare with Cooper in Virginia. They did fly in judge Nelson Vazquez, though.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 13, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Check it out. 50 huge, blatant shoves, not just a few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEpQpOU5i8w
Just a few wouldn’t bother me, or most other people, or most refs, for that matter. Just check this video out, and then see what you think.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I was hoping to see Khan win the fight, but I didn’t think the referee was way out of line. I think deducting two points was just about right. I don’t think the points should have been taken off for pushing, but some deductions were in order for the headlocks and wrestling tactics that Khan employed … but in the end, I’d say it balances out.
I mean I really can’t stand Kahn and I wanted him to lose but to me it seemed like Kahn had a choice of getting butted in the mouth or protecting himself the way he did. Peterson’s head was regularly in front of his lead foot and he was just throwing from the hip like a wild man. And the throwing wild part is his prerogative but leading with his head gave Kahn no choice but to push him off the way he was. Also the ref was so blatantly pro Peterson which makes this even harder to stomach. Constantly barking, “C’mon Kahn!!” but politely advising Peterson, “Keep your head up boy”
Peterson never once butted Khan, nor did he ever come close. Some guys fight in a crouching style, it’s not illegal at all. Check out the video posted above. Has nothing to do with protecting against butts.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
And Khan wanted to fight Bradley whose head constantly stays in your chest…I wonder how that fight would have gone and what people would have been saying if Khan lost that fight.
I’ve been wondering ever since I posted that when some ref is going to nail Bradley. He can’t punch hard, and without the butts I’m not so sure he can win, especially against someone who can punch hard. What a foul fest if they fought each other.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Referees make subjective judgement calls based on rules that are interpreted in the field
IMO, You do not take points away for infractions in the final minutes of what is closely contested and otherwise very fairly contested fight.
I watch fighters fight. not referees make decisons that directly impact the decisions
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Referees are the only law in the ring. Without them there is no boxing. For that reason they make calls and deductions all the time that affect the outcome of fights. That’s part of the fight. Mora’s failure to do so affected that fight, and was a disgrace. Had Cooper not taken points, would have been the same thing.
Khan had no respect for that; he was hard warned, twice, and got exactly what he deserved, Kid can’t adjust to anything, needs to learn how.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
yet I repeat
We still had an egregious scorecard that had Khan winning 115-110 WITH the two point deduction, yet nobody is talking about that.
I watch fighters fight, not grab and shove and headlock, no matter if it’s in the final minutes or not.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
If you look at the foul that got Khan penalized that second point, though, it’s particularly blatant. Peterson has him backed up against the ropes and is starting to work him over, and Khan just grabs Peterson by the head with both gloves and SHOVES Peterson off of him, giving him a chance to get off the ropes.
That’s the kind of foul that can change the course of the round, giving Khan an advantage by virtue of his foul. You shouldn’t get a free pass on fouling just because it’s late in a fight.
by Verklemptomaniac on Dec 14, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Watch Muhammed Ali fight Joe Frazier in the second fight.
Watch Evander’s whole strategy against Tyson.
I have seen oushing and shoving so far more egregious in so many major fights with world class fighters, this pales by comparison.
My objection is the timing. That push shove/lock did not nor would not have impacted what those two fighters may have ultimately done. The referee’s decision/deduction did.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Absurd
Sorry, but this wasn’t a situation where the referee sat by and said nothing for 95% of the fight and then took a point in the very last second.
Khan was warned for blatantly violating the rules multiple times. Then Khan had the first point taken away. This is entirely on Khan, as he kept doing what he knew the ref wasn’t allowing!
The rules should be enforced and intrepreted as consistently as possible. That includes the final minutes of the fight. The idea that the ref should let anything go just because it is the end of the fight is baffling to me.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Just watched it for the first time in full
Scored it a draw with the 10th level. ( Afterwards I went back to the 10th & tried to find a winner but I really couldn’t)
I have no problem with the deductions. Khan kept on fouling.
If I was the Ref, maybe I would have called time out sooner, really lay down the law to Khan and say “If I have to speak to you again, I will take points”. He also could have went over to the corner between rounds and spoken to him. If your warning fighters when they are being hit, and then keep warning them, and then again without taking action, they are going to think they will get away with it all night.
He also said “Last Warning” I think in the 5th…. Then warned him again 30 seconds later. Not good communication.
The ref could have done a better job, no doubt
but ultimately this is on Khan, particularly the second point deduction.
A little pushing won’t ruin a fight for me—but high level boxers have to be able to adjust to a plan B if they come across a ref who, you know, actually enforce the rules.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Khan had to adjust to a plan B anyhow
Peterson had three plans. Khan had one. That also is what lossed him the fight IMO. Roach should know better.
by Sweet science on Dec 14, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Reminds me of WK - Haye somewhat
where the ref also punished sth that usually isn’t punished (holding + pushing weight on the opponent). The difference was that Haye was extremely provoking that punishment, sinking on his knee whenever there was the slightest touch on his shoulders.
Here the ref was right. If the rules are so obviously and repeatedly violated, they have to be enforced at stome point of time – otherwise those rules could simply be deleted from the book as well.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Haye was definitely the provoker.
By the way, I do follow football (soccer). I love the Polish national team and you’re right, Poland almost did make history this past Sept. 6 in the international friendly game in Gdańsk versus Germany. I still can’t believe it. I can’t wait for Euro 2012 though, because Poland is in a manageable group. Maybe that’s when my people will make history, hopefully :)
And also….
Polish boxers and German boxers: Man, I love some of their rivalries. Remember Tomasz Adamek vs Thomas Ulrich from October 2005? What about light heavyweight Grzegorz Soszyński’s fight with Steve Kroekel in 2008? I sure am aware, because both Poles won!
The knockdown was another bad call. Take away knockdown, and two point deductions: 114-114, 114-114, instead of 113-112, 113-112… Majority Draw!!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
True,
but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that Mayweather would adjust, certainly after the first point deduction.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
He would never get the deduction
Because he is too smart to fight as the A side fighter on foriegn turf.
What happened to Khan would never happen to Floyd. No matter who or how he pushes or shoves.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
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