WBC Mandates Martinez vs. Chavez And Dawson vs. Hopkins
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 15, 2011 10:46 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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The WBC took a very hard line with Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. and mandated that he has to fight Sergio Martinez as reported by Rick Reeno of Boxing Scene. He cannot take a voluntary defense against either Marco Antonio Rubio or Miguel Cotto both names that have been thrown around by Top Rank. Miguel Cotto is a logical matchup for Top Rank to make, keeping all of the profits in house because both fighters work under the Top Rank banner. In terms of a possible fight with Sergio, it will be a cold day in hell before they let Chavez anywhere close to Sergio. Chavez is making strides in his recent fights, looking to be a force as a pressure fighter with actual power. Yet, Sergio Martinez has all the tools to absolutely positively destroy a fighter like Chavez. Sergio has developed big power, has great stamina, and is a defensive cutie. These are the tools needed to completely embarrass a fighter like Chavez. Chavez already draws a ton of people and really does not need a paper title. Martinez's promoter Lou DiBella knows this fact, and it looks like he is angling for a deal with Bob Arum.
"Chavez must fight Sergio next. No interim fights. He has to fight Sergio next or Bob Arum must work out a deal with me. He can't take the Feburary fight without being stripped or unless Top Rank and DiBella agree. Obviously I'll be having conversations with both HBO and Arum."
The key part of that statement is "or Bob Arum must work out a deal with me." DiBella knows that Chavez is not fighting Martinez and is trying to get some money out of it or some other conciliation out of this situation. The most likely outcome is that Chavez takes on Cotto and that Sergio becomes the full WBC titlist. Chavez is a walking pile of money and Arum is not going to risk that on a fight with Martinez. Bob can deal with Chavez Jr. losing to Cotto, but being embarrassed by Martinez will severely undercut Chavez's moneymaking potential.
Another move by the WBC was to mandate a rematch between Chad Dawson and Bernard Hopkins. This would be another terrible fight and everyone knows it. I would like to see Dawson go for a rematch with Jean Pascal on the undercard and have Hopkins take on Lucian Bute at a catchweight. Unfortunately, it was Gary Shaw that convinced the WBC to order a rematch, meaning that Dawson probably has no plans to go after Pascal. Dawson cannot draw anywhere so I guess he needs a title to justify big purses.
What do you guys think are the best matchups for each of these guys: Martinez, Hopkins, Dawson, and Chavez Jr.?
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If theyre mandated then let’s see em. Personally I think Hopkins Dawson is terrible, but why not see it play out. As far as the Chavez Martinez fight goes, I think it’s great. Martinez is smaller but better. And Chavez needs to be tested. If not now then when? If neither happens then I just hope titles are stripped and we get to see a good fight for a vacant belt by whom ever
by RRod806 on Dec 15, 2011 11:00 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
On instinct, meaning without any knowledge whatsoever, I would have to agree on virtually every point you have made, Scott, in regards to Chavez.
For me, he is an entertainer with a great name; not the world titlist that he holds a part Martinez is the ‘true’ (whatever that means) champion…and everyone who knows a lick about contemporary boxing knows it.
I use the word entertainer to descibe JCC Jr, not entirely as a pejorative because I think he is a willing combatant on the level that he has confronted thus far….and his fights are not dull. He likes to fight. He’s just not that good. I think he will improve but the last thing any handler should do with a kid like him is throw him in so far over his head, he loses not just the fight but his confidence.
This is long way of saying the same thing as you. Chavez Martinez is not going to happen.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I wrote the article but I take being confused with Scott as a complement. Also I will refer to JCC jr. as an entertainer and not a fighter. Thats gold.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 15, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry Waldo.
Im such a shitty typist, I never look up. I should have noticed.
I still agree with you. lol
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
How many fights would you say he needs before he's thrown in with someone who is an actual threat?
Look, I respect that he’s a pro fighter. I’m not and he is, and it’s easy to criticize. However, from a fan’s standpoint it is high time that he gets in there with a really good fighter. He doesn’t need to be 100-0 before this happens…it’s comical now.
"That was very funny about the old man basketball skills. One is lucky to escape injury when playing against those crafty, crusty sumbitches. And it’s just demoralizing when they demonstrate yet again how to use the backboard from range." - Charlie Custer
by SmittytheCutman on Dec 16, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
But TR wants him to fight Cotto or maybe Canelo if GB wants to do the latter; and is dumb enough.
Those are winnable fights against good fighters not named Martinez
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Sergio v. Jccjr. That is funny stuff.
by Sentimental on Dec 15, 2011 11:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Hey Scott
Don’t wait for the annoucement, go ahead and post with the headline “Chavez vacates WBC Title”.
Didn’t you notice the part where Bob Arum can work out a deal?
The WBC belts are the only green things of value in Don Jose’s lair.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 16, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Bottom line is this: What Chavez Jr does now will determine whether he is a pussy or a fighter.
Even if he voluntarily vacates the title, fans will know that he chose the former. He already has a ton of critics and this is further proof of the reputation that he has earned.
It’s time for Jr to shit or get off the pot.
"That was very funny about the old man basketball skills. One is lucky to escape injury when playing against those crafty, crusty sumbitches. And it’s just demoralizing when they demonstrate yet again how to use the backboard from range." - Charlie Custer
by SmittytheCutman on Dec 16, 2011 12:43 AM EST reply actions
How do you say "Care to use this toilet, sir?" in Spanish
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Honestly
JCC Jr. is a bigger name than Martinez, and there’s no way in hell he beats Martinez. He certainly gives up his belt if Cotto is even on the table, and if Cotto is willing to fight him at all, I’m sure he’d like the payday whether or not a paper title is at stake. Hell, if JCC gets stripped, they can probably find another sanctioning body to put an interim title at stake or something.
As for Dawson-Hopkins, who the hell knows. I wouldn’t be shocked if Hopkins never officially retires but never fights again. The money just isn’t there for him, and personally I’m not confident he could beat Tavoris Cloud at this point much less Chad Dawson. I think bad Chad was winning at the point the fight got stopped, although it was early, and he really hasn’t looked that great in any fight in several years except against the fundamentally unsound Pascal. Since then, the last time he looked decent was against Pavlik, who he was also able to just plain outsmart. The man is a legend, and the fact that at his extremely advanced age I still even give him a shot is a huge credit to him, but I wouldn’t mind seeing him retire at this point. I don’t know if he would want to, and he’s not the world’s greatest communicator which would be important, but I suspect that if he went into training he’d be a top 5 trainer immediately.
So, it seems to me to be a big pile of irrelevant. Each of these guys except Dawson controls his own destiny, no matter what the WBC does. Dawson is the only one who needs a belt to be relevant.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I agree Brickhaus...I think Dawson is a bad stylistic fight for Hopkins.
But, I think Hopkins-Cloud would be a very good fight and I’d pick Hopkins to outsmart and outgrind Cloud.
Other than that I too feel it’s time for Bernard to retire.
"That was very funny about the old man basketball skills. One is lucky to escape injury when playing against those crafty, crusty sumbitches. And it’s just demoralizing when they demonstrate yet again how to use the backboard from range." - Charlie Custer
by SmittytheCutman on Dec 16, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
I know that Cotto wanted JCC jr. so that he could become the first Puerto Rican 4 division champion. If Chavez get stripped then I’m not sure if Cotto wants to go after the big man. Just remembered that. As for Dawson, jeez I don’t know and I say that as a bonafide Chad Dawson fan. I would like to see Pascal again because I saw Dawson go all Beast-Mode before the fight was stopped, and it was a fortunate stoppage. Hopkins – Bute is worth too much money for him to walk away from that fight.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 16, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
Cotto will fight Chavez for the huge money. He wants big names and big money. JCC is both.
BTW, both Cotto and Chavez have gained titles fighting men not namedMartinez thus far. As far as they are concerned, why fix it if it aint broke
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You might be right
But I think he wants Chavez because he’s the guy who brings the most name with the least competition right now. What other name fighters are available, beatable by Cotto, and available from Top Rank? Plus, I’m sure Arum would pay a premium to feed one of his top properties to someone else who could be a long-term money maker.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Cotto/Junior....Puerto Rico/Mexico
It’s a gimme.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Agree 100% Brick
and he’s not the world’s greatest communicator which would be important, but I suspect that if he went into training he’d be a top 5 trainer immediately.
I’d love Hopkins to go into training. He has such a wealth of knowledge that could be passed down. The only problem he might have is patience with his fighters. For all of his graft, he was an exceptional fighter so he must be patient with fighters that do not have his high levels of skill & dedication.
by Sweet science on Dec 16, 2011 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
He's a narcissist
I dont think he has the kind of tempermant to pass his saavy on to others and watch them get the credit. One reason why he is still fighting is his love of the limelight. That is not a criticism. It is an observation
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I dont think he has the kind of tempermant to pass his saavy on to others and watch them get the credit
Just took a look at Jrok’s post on Hopkins afer his W against Pascal. I think you both sum him up very well in the comments section earlier on
by Sweet science on Dec 16, 2011 3:40 AM EST up reply actions
Trainers are in the limelight quite frequently these days. Look at Freddie, Brother Naz, Robert Garcia, and Roger. All of those guys become household names because of 24/7 or fight camp 360. If you have one good fighter, then the fighter gets the credit. Once you have a couple, then the trainer gets some credit. I remember that Hopkins had/has a section in The Ring where he would run through how to throw a certain punch or do a certain technique. They were always informative and well done. I don’t know if that would necessarily translate over to being a full-time trainer, but I think we are all agreed that Hopkins certainly has the knowledge-base to do it.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 16, 2011 3:43 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
Hopkins will never train. He’ll promote (a little, via GBP) and he’ll be around and he might work for HBO or Showtime, but he’ll never train.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 16, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
LOL Pakin....I love reading your posts brother.
I know how to ask where is the bathroom but not how to ask Chavez how to shit or get off the pot. Im sure someone here does though.
"That was very funny about the old man basketball skills. One is lucky to escape injury when playing against those crafty, crusty sumbitches. And it’s just demoralizing when they demonstrate yet again how to use the backboard from range." - Charlie Custer
by SmittytheCutman on Dec 16, 2011 12:50 AM EST reply actions
You guys are funny. The answer to your question is “O cagas o te quitas”
Although the closest phrase in Mexico(at least that I can remember right now) to indicate that sentiment of either do something or get out of the way is:
“Ni pichas, ni cachas, ni dejas batear”
Which means you don’t pitch, you don’t catch, and you don’t let people bat.
Another noteworthy mandating today was that the Morales-Garcia winner is supposed to immediately then fight Olusegun.
There were a bunch today but I could only get ‘excited’ about these two.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 16, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions
I dunno Sillakh-Pascal would be an entertaining fight too, and the Olusegun thing is just kind of noteworthy because it seemed like they’d simply continue to gloss over him the way they did when Morales was first given the belt. I’d hate to say it’s a matter of the WBC doing “the right thing” but it’s another case where they kind of exceeded (low) expectations.
As much as my jaw dropped at the conclusion of Martinez-Williams II, I can’t help but think that given the modern boxing landscape, it may have temporarily halted Sergio’s career. No big name promoter or fighter will take a fight with him for fear they’ll go the way of Williams.
by Joe Landry on Dec 16, 2011 2:18 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I think it’s a combination of that plus a dearth of mature, full size, junior middle and middleweight contenders. I have always believed Sergio is an unconventional but beatible fighter. I still do.
But unfortunately for all of us who would ilike to see him compete, there are not many name options around today who offer him the competition or potential purse he deserves.
Personally, If Floyd had any Manny in him, he would move back up to 154 where I think would beat Sergio. But I’m not holding my breath. Nor does FM have any obligation to do so.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
There isn't a dearth of mature, full size, junior middleweight contenders
It’s just their not American and have no pull at HBO. Pirog, Sturm and Geale fit the bill perfectly. Sergio is definitely beatable, but he’s not easy and he is a southpaw that can punch, which is tough anyway you look at it really. At junior middleweight, there is the new and improved James Kirkland that everyone adores now. He’s an American building his name. Frankly though, Sergio runs through him. No doubt there.
Floyd has no financial incentive to fight Sergio. It’s a riskier fight than Ortiz/Berto/Guerrero/Pacquiao and he won’t make any more money to take it.
Personally, If Floyd had any Manny in him, he would move back up to 154
Good Lord. If he had any Manny in him he’d ask for a 150-pound catchweight. Mayweather is no more a 154-pound fighter than Manny Pacquiao is.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 16, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
I beg to differ.
His star vehicle was fighting Oscar was at junior middle, albeit he weighed 150 to Oscar’s 154. That was a full four and half years ago.
He also paid Marquez over a half million more recently not to lose two pounds…in other words to fight at a comfortable weight.
When I said ‘If Floyd had more Manny in him", I was referring to challenging bigger fighters. Manny’s rise to stardom corresponded with his run through bigger men. Floyd has no obligation whatsoever to fight bigger men tahn himself but I believe he could…… and that he could win. In fact, I would wager that at the right time (meaning when he sees slippage) he will take on Sergio and win.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Super Middleweight
Dirrell is the mandatory for the winner of the Super Six. Why?!?!?!?!?!?!
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
Chavez draws money, Sergio draws Dibella twitter diatribes.
Dropping the belt will not damage Chavez and gaining the belt will not help Sergio get any big fights either, until he really starts to slip.
Nobody will read this and care and why should they?
This is true. The belt
Is merely a bargaining chip for Dibella. However, a fight with Chavez Jr would be the biggest pay day of Martinez’s career.
In case it wasn’t clear, Cotto just fights for money now not legacy, otherwise he would face Martinez at 54.
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