Lucian Bute vs Carl Froch: Two-Fight Deal For Canada and UK in 2012
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 11:19 AM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Less than 48 hours after Carl Froch lost the Super Six World Boxing Classic final to Andre Ward in Atlantic City, the Daily Mail reports that Froch and Lucian Bute are closing in on a two-fight deal.
Bute, the Canadian-based Romanian, agreed to the two-fight proposal from Froch's promoter Eddie Hearn. The first fight is projected for Montreal in April, the return at Forest's City Ground in June or July. Froch said: 'That will be just fantastic. It's my dream.'
Hearn said: 'This must be the quickest and easiest deal we've done. We take the British end, they take the Canadian money and we split the rest 50-50, for both fights. Nice and simple.'
... Bute, 31, said: 'My next ambition is to close Carl's big mouth. He is arrogant and has too much to say. The truth of the Super Six is that I was very disappointed not to be invited. While Ward deserved this victory my preference is still to fight Froch and teach him a lesson.'
Froch (28-2, 20 KO) was soundly defeated by Ward (25-0, 13 KO) on Saturday night, but Ward made no indication that he's got major interest in fighting Bute (30-0, 24 KO) right now, saying that he was going to take a rest, which he felt he deserved.
With Ward not really interested, or at least giving that impression, Eddie Hearn and Matchroom Boxing jumped in and came up with an interesting deal that made sense for both sides. Hearn and Froch are showing the desire to continue operating at the highest level. Froch could have gone back to Nottingham for a homecoming rebound win, but instead will head to Montreal in April to face Bute. Can't argue with that.
What remains to be seen is how the public takes this. Will Ward lose any face or respect for seemingly brushing off the Bute fight?
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Say what?
The truth of the Super Six is that I was very disappointed not to be invited.
You were invited. You said no. To quote Ben Still in Meet The Parents – Shut your pie hole.
by journeyintosound on Dec 19, 2011 11:26 AM EST reply actions
I have yet to see a credible report that says he was invited
I think Kalle Sauerland said he was, but the original quote from Hirschman was that they didn’t even approach Bute or Pavlik, other than very preliminarily, because they felt they would be too expensive.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Ward’s had a tough schedule during the last 2 years and he probably hasn’t taken a break or a vacation. I’d say he rests up 3-4 months, gets an easy tune up, and fight on.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Buchanan (I know), Miranda, Pudwill (I know), Kessler, Green, Bika, Abraham, Froch… he’s fought 8 fights in the last 3 years… that’s almost averaging 3 fights a year with mostly very top opponents. 4 fights in 2009, 2 a piece in 2010 and 2011. Andre Ward 2011
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
That's not a crazy schedule
Plus he’s young and doesn’t take much damage. I see no reason he can’t keep up a three fight a year schedule, with the occasional creampuff mixed in.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Agreed--
we operate in a time when fighters may not fight too often, but three a year is no killer schedule.
by Don From Prov on Dec 19, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
4 in 2009. Just saying he’s busier than most fighters and it’s not the cream puff, it’s the fact that being constantly in and out of training camp is emotionally draining and prolly physically draining too. That’s a 6-9 week commitment with 2-3 workouts a day, 6-8 hours a day probably, sleep early and waking up early, probably no sex, eating right… and he stays in shape in between fights. It’s understandable to me that he’d want a break. Preparing for a quality opponent probably requires even more and higher level preparation.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
by cylee1180 on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Miranda (I know), Green (I know), Abraham (I know)
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Miranda had a pretty good shot at Ward leading up to the fight, and he’d only lost to Abraham and Pavlik at the time.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Miranda had a pretty good shot at Ward leading up to the fight
Based on what?
And most pple picked Abraham or Kessler as favorites of the tournament.
That was TWO YEARS before Ward beat Abraham.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Many pple on this site picked miranda for one. and I understand with Abraham. My point being it’s understandable if he needs a break. From a physical/athletic perspective, and from a sports psychology perspective. If an athlete is not emotionally well it will take away from his/her performance. If you don’t agree, all good, agree to disagree ya’ heard. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
many people on this site overrated Miranda based on one decent performance in his career. Miranda sucks.
I don’t understand this “needs a break” stuff. He fights twice a year.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, just what I want to see from the Real World’s Champion. An “easy tune-up.” Boy that sounds exciting. No wonder boxing is so hot.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
It blows my mind at how brainwashed us boxing fans are. We actually encourage tune-up fights (this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this)! I encourage the best possible fight every fight. Call me crazy
This is the part where I have to slightly pull rank, and I apologize if it comes off as arrogant or whatever, but hopefully just matter of fact. I’ve competed in Modern Wushu (sport version of Kung Fu) on a national level for 6-8 years and once at an international level, and I’ve usually averaged about 2-3 tournaments a year. It doesn’t like sound a lot, but it usually involved about 2-3 months of preparation for each tournament, not to mention travel expenses, tuition paid at my school, and a huge a commitment. Usually after a tournament I’d take it easy in training for 2 weeks if it was a smaller tournament and 3-4 weeks if it was a bigger tournament. The process of entering training camp, over training, and peaking and then performing is mentally exhausting. Also, I trained 6 days a week in between training camps, so I can definitely sympathize with fighters who put in 6-8 hours a day in camp on average, and consumate professionals who probably put in anywhere from 3-5 hours in the gym in between fights (whereas I did 2-3 hours daily, and 3-5 hours daily in training camp). Now that I’ve just started as a amateur kickboxer, I can also see other things getting in the way: injuries sustained from the fight, injuries sustained from training camp, and all of this stress in training camp exists in the Perfect camp (add life drama and it can be a headache). After a fight the body still needs some time to heal, and jumping from training camp to training camp back to back won’t really lead to improvement. Training camp is a time to sharpen the tools and over train, and in between time is an opportunity to develop and improve the tools without a definite deadline or date in sight.
ALSO With tune ups, they aren’t supposed to be money makers, or crowd pleasers. When a fighter takes more than 4 months off the sport, they’re going to acquire ring rust. No matter how much you spar you’re gonna get it. Most fighters not named Floyd need a tune up fight after a long lay off otherwise if they come right out and fight a quality opponent then something along the lines of Winky-Williams could happen (a disaster). I was super rusty in sparring after taking 2-3 weeks off of sparring after my fight. Imagine how that would feel at the pro and most elite level. I’m not for promoting tune up fights, but tune up fights have their use and purpose in pro fighting.
Okay, schpeel is done. Sorry for so much writing!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
This is the part where I have to slightly pull rank, and I apologize if it comes off as arrogant or whatever, but hopefully just matter of fact. I’ve competed in Modern Wushu
This is where I have to pull even higher rank and remind you I am an expert in Shaolin, Tiger-Style Chess Boxing. I don’t know applicable your experience is here…perhaps elite fighters don’t get all that rusty after a few weeks? They don’t really do tournaments that require multiple fights very close together either.
Nobody is asking him to jump right back into training. I don’t know if you are aware, but elite fighters from previous eras fought very frequently. Robinson fought multiple times a month in his prime. It didn’t seem to affect his skills very much…He’s generally considered the greatest fighter to ever live. Many of those fights were against inferior comp. but the point is they fought very frequently.
The problem is the modern elite prizefighter fights so infrequently (2-3 times a year) there is no need for tune-ups, just take high level fights at a reasonable pace. Elite fighters do not need a tune-up after 4 months of inactivity. If that were the case every other fight would be a tune-up, which would suck. I have no problem with him taking a few months off, but come on. It’s not like Ward has taken much punishment the last couple years.
For example Robinson fought 19 times in 1950. Is asking Ward to fight top competition 2 or 3 times a year that insane?
Robinson also had complications later in life due to his boxing schedule. I mean I get where you guys are coming from, but organizations are just now looking at the long term effects of concussions. The sport and people who follow it must continue to evolve. The argument of: “well the older fighters use to do it” seems kind of moot. The older fighters use to box 20 rounds as well sometimes bare knuckled.
by tacklerford on Dec 19, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry I’ll never “evolve” to where I think elite fighters should only take one, maybe two tops, serious fights per year.
And I don’t think that argument is totally “moot”. I was pointing out the flaws in his argument, i.e. that fighting more often won’t allow a fighter to improve or will harm their performance, which is proven by history to be false.
He made no mention of long term damage, which is a legitimate concern. I’m not advocating fighting twice a month, just saying fighters were quite capable of doing so.
Tacleford--
A lot of fighters have “complications” from boxing, and it’s not from the schedule.
Someone who fights once a year can be seriously concussed in that fight and suffer problems.
Actually, someone with five or six fights could suffer dementia in later years—
And then there is someone like Jake LaMotta who fought often and a lot, and is fine.
by Don From Prov on Dec 20, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
It’s nice that you categorized my training quickly into a “chop socky” Kung Fu movie and brushed it aside. That’s nice, but Modern Wushu is a legitimate sport (Jet Li is one of the most famous advocates/pracitioners of the art. I was a member of the US Wushu Team, and represented the US once in the Pan American Wushu Games, and trained with the Guangdong Professional Wushu Team 6-7 hours a day for almost a month. Anyway, my point is, and it’s not just my point, if you read any of the autobiographies of Lance Armstrong, Michael Johnson or other great athletes they talk about similar things about peaking, burnout, injuries, and life drama that goes on in between and during competitions. It’s very easy to be text book-ish and matter of fact whereas I’m simply trying to add perspective about where the athlete is coming from. Also, the regular training vs. training camp improvement thing is totally legit. Why else would professional athletes in the NBA and NFL emphasize working out during the off season and pre season, and their work on the fundamentals so important during the non-competition time? B/c they’re on the road 2-3 times a week and don’t have time to sit and work on a foul shot or some other fundamental for months at a time. Think about it this way: most fighters DON’T train hard in between camps and basically use camps as a method to cut weight and sharpen the tools they already have. That’s why you see few fighters improve dramatically in between fights. Either they plateaued or more likely when they get big they have enough distractions that prevents them from putting in the work. The real athletes who grind it out year round like Hagler and Hopkins and Ward and the Old Pacquiao definitely make jumps in improvement and show new angles in every fight. I mean break it down to this: 1.) Fight 2-3 times a year… that’s only 5-6 months of training camp max… so if fighters aren’t putting daily work in the gym in between they’re not going to improve when they’re boxing and training only half the year, and esp. if they’re outta shape they’re gonna just try to get fit for a fight. 2.) If they’re fighting all the time, like once or twice a month… they won’t have the time to train for an extended period of time, then “peak” then have a really great performance based on an extended training session. In essence they go to the gym to stay fit and maintain, and their improvement comes from ring experience and not long training camps which is legitimate and acceptable.
Overall, I’m making some legitimate points, and universal points about athletes and their training schedule. If you’re gonna sweep that information under the rug again then I’m gonna save my breath next time. Why bother debating and having an informative conversation with someone who is ready to rebutt before listening to your point? The quality of the site and the users on it was what drew me to this site, not ivory tower fans who think they know it all. That’s it. Pc! Have a nice day.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
In MMA fighter Forrest Griffin’s autography “Got Fight?” he details the exact process of training (getting new skills from different disciplines) and how an 8 week camp is not enough to work new skills (that could actually hurt you b/c it’s not enough time to learn it and make it muscle memory) and it’s best to only focus on doing what you already know and doing it the best you can.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Also, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t old time fighters who fought for 20 rounds used to hold, and lay on each other alot during fights?
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
But hope that last comment didn’t contradict or undermine my original point. Time in regular training camp and time in training camp are completely two different regimens. Also, that training camps are f’n emotionally exhausting if it’s coupled with regular and hard training in between camps/fights. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I’m very excited about this pair of fights. On one hand I’d love Froch to expose the heck out of Bute and having him run away and cancel the second fight, on the other hand, it’d be a good test to see how good Bute is and to see his chin and heart tested. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Great
idea, and will look forward to the fights—
Or maybe “fight” if one incinerates the other first time around.
Cylee: I think that calling one a hype = a slur.
Good, b/c it was meant to be one. Bute is a ____ hype to me. I’m not a racist, but I believe that much to be true. If it offends the website/moderators then I’ll leave the subject alone (well I’m gonna pretty much do it anyway) and move on to other talk. To me, he’s done nothing to be considered a current or former top dog. I understand there’s national pride in Canada, and I understand he’s done well agst limited, and straightforward fighters with limited defense minus an old Johnson, but the fact that pple can jump to the conclusion that he’s some big deal leads me to that assumption. If I’m wrong, I’m sorry. If I offended you personally, I did not mean to. And I’m not knocking all pple or fighters of Caucasian descent, as I’m a big fan of Carl Froch who’s proved himself agst tough opponents (Pascal, Dirrell, Abraham, and Kessler, and fought Ward with grit). If Bute can beat or fight competitively with Froch, Bhop, Ward, or anyone in the Super Six (at least 2 elite fighters in or near their prime) then he will prove something to me. Does he have some skills? Yes, knocking out Andrade and Miranda with body shots were a nice display of skills. I like his long range upper cut, he has pretty fast feet and hands, and he can box. To me, I see him more from the view of a prospect than champion or title holder, but you know, I could be wrong and have been wrong. Extra apologies to the offended, serious, I’m opionionated about boxing, and in this case Bute, not about race and discrimination and stereotypes. Holler.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Hopefully you're willing to change your mind if he proves himself
Not being in the S6, I’m hard pressed to think of who else he should have fought. It sounds crazy, but he’s consistently fought the best opponent available.
- Bika was top 10 at the time he dominated him.
- Berrio was top 10, a legitimate titilist, and had just dominated current titlist Stieglitz when he dominated him.
- Zuniga, rightly or wrongly, was ranked in the top 10 when Bute fought him after dominating a thoroughly overrated Oganov and fighting even with Inkin and getting jobbed on the cards in Germany.
- Andrade was rated top 5 at SMW both times they fought, and before both fights he had just dominated a good fighter (including Stieglitz as well). In addition, he was the highest rated fighter not in the Super 6 both times.
- Miranda wasn’t a great defense, but he had only lost to top fighters, had decent name recognition, and was legitimate top 15 in the weight class.
- Brinkley was a mandatory who earned his shot the hard way and worked up into the 168 top 10 in the process. He was the highest ranked fighter at the time who Bute hadn’t already beaten, wasn’t in the Super 6 or, in the case of Stieglitz, just had no interest in fighting Bute.
- Magee won the European title and had several good wins in a row before fighting Bute. Once again, he was the highest rated fighter at the time who wasn’t otherwise indisposed and who Bute hadn’t beaten already.
- Johnson had just given tough fights to Froch and Cloud and beat Allan Green, was the second best fighter available (other than Kessler, and honestly I just don’t know whose side of the story to believe on that one), and was a legitimate top 10 guy. Not only that, but this only happened because Kelly Pavlik backed out of their fight that he had already signed.
Mendy (mandatory) and Joppy (an indefensible joke) were bad defenses, but what can you do? He’s made an effort to fight who he can. Yes, he’s mostly fought at home, and there was one fight with bad officiating, but it’s not like he’s faced anyone with enough name recognition where the fight would draw well anywhere outside of Quebec.
Basically, Bute is in the same situation as Wladimir Klitschko. He’s gone out and beaten all of the best available fighters. Both have one guy who just refuses to fight them (Stieglitz, Povetkin). The big difference is that there are other challengers Bute couldn’t face, whereas Klitschko just won’t face his brother. Now that these opportunities are opening up, he should get the chance to prove himself. If he winds up losing badly once he steps up, then so be it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I am willing to change my mind. Thanks for the briefing of his resume. I did not know he fought so many ranked opponents, but it’s still a little “let’s wait and see” on his fighting famous and the top elite fighters. I guess it’s almost like the Pac-syndrome, you take out the reaction or attitude of their fans on the fighter. I guess I’m more upset about how pple are perceiving Bute than I am at Bute as a fighter or about how skilled Bute is. Thanks for the clarification!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
You're wrong on the race thing. And you are wrong to bring that into it.
Race has nothing to do with it. Maybe “hype job,” but explain the significance of his race? I just don’t get it. He’s not even an American name. No US network is pushing Bute to appeal to white americans. Canadian hype Job maybe? He’s not even white Canadian a la David Lemiuex – he’s Romanian (and gypsy although I may be wrong on that one). What makes him appealing to boxing fans in Canada isn’t his ethnic background, it’s his flashy knockouts. Take it to the bank.
However, I can understand your skepticism somewhat. Bottom line, he hasn’t faced Ward or Froch or Kessler because if you take out Froch, Ward, Kessler from each of their respective cv’s and it’s not like they have much better wins than Bute and they were all locked up in the tournament. At the end of the day, Bute should fight Froch and then face Kessler. Bottom line, end of story.
I would only add to Brickhaus’s well-researched response that Bute has looked better against opponents he has in common with Ward and Froch. He dominated a fresher Bika than when Ward fought him. Bika barely won a round against Bute. Bika fought hard with Ward even if the score cards were wide and Bika even somewhat hurt Ward in the final round of their fight. He also strongly stopped Miranda where Ward just beat him on the cards. Compare those two performances. In the case of Froch, Froch was actually losing against Magee when he knocked him out. Against Magee, Bute didn’t lose a round even though the rounds were close for the first five.
I’m sticking to my guns… maybe Bute has not been hyped… so I’m gonna withdraw that part, but I think Caucasians sometimes look for a champion that look like them and when that chance comes in a sport that’s predominantly Latino and African American from lightweight up and Asian Pacific and Mexican below lightweight, then sometimes they unknowingly or subconsciously root for someone best they can and make them out a little more than they are (a bit like Pacquiao-ism but not as bad), Pple were hypin’ Pavlik as the next big thing before Bhop brought him down. Calzaghe for the most part deserved acclaim, I’d say Adamak deserves it, of course the Klistchko… even Andy Lee and McEwan for grinding out tough fights… but I’m yet to have seen Bute challenged or in deep with a good opponent… but again, since I’ve seen he’s fought a Decent line up… I’ll back off my statement…. but again, sorry for comments if they appear racist… it’s more of a sociological/psychological (“I need someone out there that looks like me”) phenomenon than a racial issue imo. Sorry! Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
and Bute’s only fought pressure or straightforward aggressive fighters with limited defense (well Glen Johnson has good defense), so we’re yet to see him fight someone who can box and has power, or boxer punchers with skill and power like Froch or Ward or Kessler. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Sorry
What caucasians are hyping Bute? Maybe I missed something? Caucasians looking for the next big white fighter? You’re lost in the past. There are more things that people identify with fighters now. Your sociological theory made sense when society wasn’t integrated and hate for people who looked different racially was prevalent. Now society is integrated and hate for different people is much less. For example, people from the different areas of country or who has had a similar path in life. Pavlik SHOULD have been hyped as the next big thing. Not for being white but because he knocked the lineal middleweight champion out cold! Bhop is a master. What’s the shame in losing to a master? Who was hyping Jean Pascal? White Canadians!
Do you think your “theory” translates to black americans too? For example, do you think that is the reason why the Klitschko’s aren’t embraced as much by the black american communities?
Dude, or maybe you should just stop talking. Your defensiveness is proving my point all the more. Pavlik sucks, his beating JT was a fluke, then a defense agst Gary Lockett and getting pummeled by Bhop. Just like Jermaine’s win over Bhop was a fluke. Simply a luck of draw on styles. Sergio Martinez whooped Pavlik and Williams… I don’t see you hyping him :). He stole those belts baby is is twice the fighter and twice as pretty as Pavlik will ever be. Pavlik is a ham and egg fighter with a good heart and good chin and a good right hand. The Klitschko’s fight in a boring, unexciting manner… and I cannot be the first person to talk to about how the African American community reacts at all b/c I’m an Asian American living in the suburbs. And last I checked, no one in America jumped on the Jean Pascal train, nor anywhere else. Pascal was simply a product of having local geographical support. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Jeez Brick. Now that you have pleaded out so clear, I have to agree with cyllee. Email for the best that were available but he certainly has not fought the best. Not even close
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 19, 2011 11:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And brinkley’s eliminator bout was fun and skillful, but Brinkley proved himself that he can’t hang with the elite. It was almost sad to see that fight… cheering for the underdog… Bute looked like he was sparring with a kid…
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
cylee--
was just playing as “hype,” in terms of racial insult, would not fit Bute anyway
and I did not think you intended to do so
by Don From Prov on Dec 20, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
what is it Froch actually said regarding Bute? Sure seems to have rattled his cage a bit.. Gonna see if he rattles Butes chin at some poin too, don’t rate Bute too highly to be honest, need to see him fighting at a higher standard
by Bald-Eagle on Dec 19, 2011 12:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Froch basically said that Bute isn’t in the discussion as one of 168’s best fighters. May have said more at some point.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I actually love Carl Froch. Coming straight from gettin his arse kicked in the biggest fight of his life to go into probably the hardest fight left available to him. I’m welling up with Nottinghamshire pride
by whypunchrabbits? on Dec 19, 2011 12:20 PM EST reply actions
+1
nothing but heart. He was calling Calzaghe out for years.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Recently he was talking about that and said he knew there was a very good chance Calzaghe would beat him. He just really wanted the fight, felt he’d earned it, wanted to go to Wales for it. Kind of sums up Carl Froch to me.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
You gotta like the guy
He’s a true warrior. And admits when the better man won.
by tacklerford on Dec 19, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
All that is true. But in the end, he may be a fighter but he is never going to be a great boxer
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 19, 2011 11:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I expect to see and hear him say many times that he has been beaten by a better man.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 19, 2011 11:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nah, I honestly think Froch is an ordinary boxer with extraordinary heart and self-belief. That alone along with decent skills and power can and has gotten him far. Only fighters named Andre Ward can make Kessler and Froch look bad imo…
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Add Andre Dirrell and Jermaine Taylor
Both IMO made him look awful.
That is the Froch that Bute is looking at and making these fights with. A guy who can easily be beat to the punch.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Froch basically out-willed and out-aggressed both of them. It’s funny, a trainer recently told me if someone is better than you, then you need to fight at an energy or intensity that they can’t keep up with and that’s how you’ll win a fight. It’s kinda tru with Froch. Though Dirrell did the better work, it was too far and in between (he ran, but fought perfectly agst Abraham), and Froch landed and partial landed more often, and pushed the fight. Froch beat up Taylor after round 5 imo and outboxed him, and ouboxed Pascal. Still say something about Froch, esp. since Pascal’s darty style and athletic build gave Dawson and Bhop some fits. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
So in other words, Pacquaio beat Marquez
if someone is (fighting) better than you, then you need to fight at an energy or intensity that they can’t keep up with and that’s how you’ll win a fight.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
…except Pacquiao didn’t do that.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 20, 2011 9:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Three judges said he did.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Three judges said Peterson beat Lara
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
And two judges
Had Ward winning only by two rounds
by Sweet science on Dec 21, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Just such a terrible comeback.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I've become a fan of Froch
The Dirrell fight and his post-fight comments turned me off, but I like him in the ring and the guy not only wants to be the best, but takes every action within his power to prove it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Eh, I don’t really buy. I imagine Bute’s team went right to Froch. Can’t blame him for wanting to stay the hell away from Ward.
but Froch could have said no. After his schedule for the last 3 odd years he’d be well within his rights to tell Bute to wait while he took on an easy fight in his hometown. I’m sure thats the sort of thing Bute could understand
by whypunchrabbits? on Dec 19, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Takes two to tango, and Ward said outright he wasn’t interested at the moment. I can’t blame Bute, Froch is a big draw and a good fight. This could smell FOTY. Makes sense. I hope Ward-Bute doesn’t happen when it’s irrelevant or when Bute has had too many wars…
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather see Bute-Ward but Froch is a hard ass and major props to him for taking this fight 48 hours after losing one. I’ll be rooting for Froch on fight night.
Froch has had the toughest schedule of anyone at 168.
No doubt about that. That man is full of mettle.
That man is full of mettle
Should change his name to Wolverine
by Sweet science on Dec 19, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would imagine that is precisely what happened. Bute should have immediately called out Ward if you really believe that he was the best.
Froch is the far easier easier path. Bottom line he has chosen to fight a man who lost not once, not twice, but arguably three times.
The props go to Froch. Not to Bute
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 19, 2011 11:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would imagine that is precisely what happened. Bute should have immediately called out Ward if you really believe that he was the best.
Froch is the far easier easier path. Bottom line he has chosen to fight a man who lost not once, not twice, but arguably three times.
The props go to Froch. Not to Bute
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 19, 2011 11:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ward clearly and plainly ducked Bute, refusing openly and straightforwardly to fight him. Bute was perfectly willing to fight Ward. It’s amazing to me how, in the face of the plain evidence, this simple truth gets reversed. Some type of weird, anti-Bute delusion, based perhaps on Bute’s refusal to be American promoted. Bute never ducked: Ward ducked. Ward stated he would not fight Bute next immediately after beating Froch, it was almost the first thing he said. Bute has never refused to fight Ward, or anyone else. Not once.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I disagree. I think Ward just wants a break. When was the last time he called anyone out? He’s just not that type of fighter.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
you could be right about a rest. But as for calling others out, neither is Bute that kind of fighter. In terms of whom Ward fights next, however, and for whatever reason, Ward, not Bute, blinked.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Ward never blinked for a second. He did exactly what was scripted for him after a decisve and glorious win. He said he wanted to break and deserved one. This is his time to relish his victory and chart a path to real money and glory.
He did exactly what a smart fighter, determined to be a better ‘boxing business’ man does. He waited and let Bute move first. That is not just his perogative. It was a very smart move.
Bute IMO blinked and jumped quickly on Number Two. For him, Number One will have to wait.
As for options, they all have them. Kessler in Denmark. Froch all over. Bute at home and I believ here in the US. And Ward with the right management has more than any of the others; including going up to fight the right light-heavy.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Dan Rafael’s opinions are often offbase imo, but his information is as close to always good as anything in this world is ever going to get. Check this out:
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7372586/andre-ward-lucian-bute-bout-looks-unlikely-time-being
Very clear that it’s not Bute ducking Ward. If anything, very much the other way around.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I too think Bute was less than keen to fight Ward, but I think it was because he had little leverage in the matter. If he beats Froch, I think he’ll be able to: A) generate more interest in a Ward fight in the US and B) have a better bargaining position for it.
Although I think this is sign of Bute dodging Ward, I think Ward was even less interested in the fight. For some reason I cannot understand Ward simply does not seem to want the Bute fight. It remains to be seen exactly what Ward’s plans are, I anticipate at least one or two crappy defenses against hopeless opponents. I suppose Ward’s team should now concentrate into trying to turn Ward into a PPV / mainstream attraction , soooo… whatever.
I will say this: if the Bute fight never happens, it will probably be because of Ward, not Bute.
What remains to be seen is how the public takes this. Will Ward lose any face or respect for seemingly brushing off the Bute fight?
A little. I was hoping for something along the lines of “and you’re next Bute!”, instead we heard Andre needs a long rest. How long is my question. You don’t go into hibernation after a performance like that. Keep the ball rolling!
I think Ward just genuinely wants a rest. I don’t anyone could ever accuse him of ducking and I really don’t think Ward fears anybody.
No, I wasn’t accusing him of ducking, just sad he didn’t want to keep the momentum going into a fight with Bute. If the man needs some R&R it’s his prerogative.
He also had a long trainingcamp
He had the cut didn’t he. I know that would have forced him to take a couple of weeks off. But that isn’t the same as being out of camp I wouldn’t think
by Sweet science on Dec 19, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Let’s remember hear that Andre Ward just went through this entire tournament undefeated and has emerged the champion.
Frock on the other hand is progressively despite his valor damaged goods. I mean that not as a commodity but as a aging fighter in descent. Unless of course you believe that the 35-year-old has his best years ahead of him
Ward is the champion.. What these other guys do in the next few months is their business. If they want to be the champion they have to fight champion.
It’s good to be king
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 20, 2011 12:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Froch came out without his belt, he wants a belt again. He’s hungry and he’s got heart and he’s fearless.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
He also knows he hasn't got many mre miles on the clock
And is trying to cash in while he still can IMO.
He can’t be loaded with the way he has been promoted untill recently
by Sweet science on Dec 20, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
And he has picked up a buzz in Britain
Has to keep it going as we can be a fickle lot
by Sweet science on Dec 21, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Bute does have to make a mandatory defense to keep the WBC belt against his buddy Dirrell…which would probably be a horrible fight. But the possibility exists for that fight, and its not really a terrible one, per se. Dirrell also creates an interesting stylistic matchup there.
There’s also the potential for the winner of Kessler/Stieglitz to produce a legitimate challenger. And Pavlik in a cash out is a name opponent who at least had serious skills. There’s fights that exist that I’d be interested in and that help out Ward’s legacy and standing. But my guess is it’ll be some months before he gets back in the ring to allow some of these things to shake out.
Yeah. And thank God for that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 19, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
I genuinely believe that you are underestimating Andre Dirrell
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
by pakinpower on Dec 20, 2011 12:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think he was talking stylistically. But an un-concussed Dirrell vs Ward or kessler would have been fun. I hope he still has his skills… we’ll find out in 10 days.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Yes we will.
The kid can box. Let’s watch to see.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I thought that Andre Dirrell was the best athlete in the Super Six, when he was ‘on his game’ against Abraham he looked great. However, he was struggling a bit late on against Abraham and overall had way more problems than Froch or Ward did.
I don’t want to put much into comparisons against the same guy, but i just don’t think that Dirrell really has the mentality to be a top fighter. Great skills though.
Nobody will read this and care and why should they?
by Eoin_not_ian on Dec 20, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
Especially when he’s sitting on the canvas from a slip.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
+1
The A’s in AA = Asshole.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Love the fight(s), but kind of a strange set up……don’t think I’ve seen a set up like it. But love Froch’s attitude and his taste in woman.
Cordingly = P4P.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
It’s hard for me to believe Ward is ducking, may indeed feel he needs a rest—depending on how long a rest, probably legitimately. Don’t think Bute’s ducking anyone either. Wouldn’t make sense for him to go begging to Ward, though, since Ward made it plain he wasn’t interested. Re Froch, sounds like a good, fair deal, uniquely enough, and a pick’em fight. I think Bute will outbox Carl in a close contest, as Bute is the better boxer, and, although no speed demon, is faster than Froch.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I believe that is underrating Bute's speed.
Recall that Taylor put Froch down and that Dirrell had him wobbly. Bute will do the same. Frankly, I believe Kessler has got too much credit for losing to Calzaghe and that win for Ward although great, wasn’t astounding by any means. It was more a shock than anything. Ward’s win over Froch was much more impressive, but I never considered Froch a p4p type talent. The main question mark over Bute is his chin.
In my opinion, Ward fulfills his mandatory against Anthony Dirrell in Spring and also builds up the story for a fight with Andre Dirrell in the Fall while Froch, Bute and Kessler are busy fighting eachother.
International hall of Big Balls
Im pretty sure the location of which can be found at Bunce’s home address too
by Sweet science on Dec 19, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Lance Armstrong's left one was the first inductee
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
and Maidana! and Morales!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I don’t think Ward is ducking Bute. No one here has had the schedule he has for the last few years; no one has walked in his shoes. I’m willing to toss the guy a break and say let him have a small rest if he feels he needs one. I mean shit, the fucking Super 6 exhausted ME, and that’s just from following it. I didn’t hear anyone condemning Peterson for not rushing into his next fight. Let these guys explore all their options.
I suppose they’ll think of the scenario where the first fight isn’t close because, normally, the second fight wouldn’t make any sense after an easy victory or a KO.
by MontrealBoxing on Dec 19, 2011 11:08 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, but I think this is really unlikely, Froch has a great chin, he’s not getting knocked out (except maybe to the body… hmmmm…). I also think it’ unlikely he knocks out Bute who, like Ward, is pretty slippery.
I also think Bute would probably not be as dominant and as active as Ward to make it a wide decision that kills the rematch. Plus, the rematch is in Nottingham, that fight would bring a good crowd and good interest no matter the first result.
This whole “if the first fight was lopsided there would be no interest in a rematch” is a very American attitude, British fans just love their man, they’ll go see him after he’s lost 5 straight – they’ll still be interested.
Good discussions guys!!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
http://www.boxingscene.com/fighting-words-unofficial-ward-bute-negotiations—47544
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
For people who have moved Ward into their p4p rankings on the back of
wins over Froch and Kessler. If Bute dominates or stops Froch, do you do the same for him? Ward doesn’t have any other wins that are better than Butes. In fact, Bute, so far, has looked better against their common opponents.
If Bute dominates or stops Froch he would definitely have a solid argument for most P4P lists (he is already on mine). But, much as I like him, I think people would still point out Ward’s win over Kessler. Kessler was, at the time, the best regarded fighter in the division, arguably in a different class then the rest and Ward absolutely schooled him. The win impressed me to no end, I still rate Ward’s work in that fight higher than his victory over Froch. Kessler was and is better than Froch and yet was dominated.
Even if Bute were to defeat Froch convincingly, he would probably not surpass Ward on most people’s P4P lists, but he would probably be included.
But Froch is Bute’s leftovers, and Froch is NOT a top p4p fighter, so how does Bute get to be on the p4p list? If he beats TWO elite fighters convincingly…. then we’re talking. Froch at the time Ward fought him crawled through 4 rounds of the Super Six and won 3 of them when they met. Ward not only beat Froch, he won the entire Super Six without a loss. THAT’s more impressive than beating one fighter. But ya gotta stand by yo’ man Bute huh, nudge
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I like the Froch v Bute fight, though a conclusive result in the first fight makes a second fight a bit pointless.
I don’t think that Ward really fancied jumping straight into the Bute and there is no way that he and his team would take the fight in Canada. I still think Ward would win, but he probably feels that he deserves a break to enjoy his success. I guess that Ward v Dirrell happens on HBO, which would make any Bute fight difficult to negotiate if he is still a Showtime guy.
Nobody will read this and care and why should they?
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