thoughts on ann wolfe and robert garcia...
by jake_ash on Dec 19, 2011 4:55 PM EST
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my head says robert garcia deserves to be trainer of the year. his fighters had a pretty great year. from taking on veterans like margarito and soon pavlik to building up younger guys like rios and mikey garcia, not to mention nonito donaire, what he has done to build up his gym in oxnard is remarkable.
however, my heart says that what ann wolfe has done with one fighter is more remarkable. because of her, kirkland went from being in, arguably, the upset of the year fight to becoming the comeback fighter of the year.
garcia is a great trainer. but he is beginning to develop a history of irresponsibly putting his fighters in danger. in a recent badlefthook poll after cotto margarito ii, 67% of respondents voted that the fight was not stopped too early. of those 67%, how many of you feel that after the ring doctor announced that it was unsafe for margarito to continue that garcia was wrong in pleading for the fight to be allowed to go on? arguably, one of the reasons margarito lost to cotto was because of garcia's decision to not stop his previous fight against pacquiao long after margarito had a chance of winning, which resulted in a broken orbital bone and a year of recovery and special attention being paid to that eye by cotto and the new york state athletic commission and ringside doctor.
another recent example of garcia putting his fighter in danger was brandon rios' fight with john murray. rios didn't make weight and looked awful for the weigh in. rumors circulated that he hadn't eaten in days and had very little water in the days leading up to the fight. whatever is true, we do know that rios had to overcome his poor conditioning to win his fight. he won in spite of his conditioning which put him in danger not just to win the fight, but to avoid serious injury.
alternately, i think a big reason that kirkland was able to overcome the adversity of angulo's initial onslaught is because of his conditioning. he was able to get off the canvas and continue the rest of the fight with a high workrate precisely because of the great condition that ann wolfe had him in.
now i know that ann wolfe shouldn't win trainer of the year based on one fighter and one fight. i just wanted to give a shout out to what ann wolfe has accomplished with james kirkland, inside and outside of the ring.
fighting is a dangerous sport. and one of the biggest responsibilities of a trainer is to protect your fighter, sometimes from himself...
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Ann Wolfe is an intelligent and wonderful person who happens to be an intelligent and wonderful trainer. I can’t say enough good about her, but she needs to branch out.
Garcia has emerged as the trainer other fighters want to be trained by. He is MAN these days and he has great pedegree to back up his credentials and record. He also has a couple of champs.
Both damn good credits to boxing.
"Boxing is the red light district of sports."
—Jimmy Cannon
Because Garcia has numerous high profile fighters and has developed several of them from near zero, I can’t argue with him as trainer of the year.
But I agree with you that he is one short step away from the guys in Holly Holm’s corner vs. Mathis, and won’t be trainer of the year twice if he sends a kid in to be damaged, which is by no means out of the question. You’re right, he’s irresponsible.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
This
And what Jake Ash points out
garcia is a great trainer. but he is beginning to develop a history of irresponsibly putting his fighters in danger
Is why I would prefer Eddie Futch in my corner, rather than Angelo. Im refering to the Thrilla in Manilla
by Sweet science on Dec 19, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Jake is wrong
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
I think your wrong
There was a real chance of Margo’s eye turning….. Well Ugly. A lot uglier than the pussy cut that occureed and the subsequent swelling. I know some Docters passed him, and the eventual outcome was that the fight went ahead, but boxing is shadier than man donning a balaclava in a bank at times….
Rios – The man looked ugly. Horrid. John Murray was game, but his limited skills meant he was not able to do what was needed. And also, props to Rios for pulling out the win.
But just because things didn’t turn out ugly in reality, Doesn’t mean the chances of serious damage was enhanced big time by the circumstances.
I think either of these events could have turned sour.
by Sweet science on Dec 22, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
pulling out the win.
My God SS, look at the cards. He`slaughtered him like a lamb on the buther’s block. And his face was unmarked.
Margo had his best round prior to the stoppage.He was strating to come on a bit abnd Cotto was backpeddling. I know what I saw and it’s not what you saw.
But just because things didn’t turn out ugly in reality, Doesn’t mean the chances of serious damage was enhanced big time by the circumstances.
pure conjecture. Fact remains—Garcia has two undefaeted high level fighters in his camp and more on the way.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
He`slaughtered him like a lamb on the buther’s block
In the last few rounds Yes. But Murray had his moments and certainly got Rios’s attention. Murray certainly had his moments and those would never had happened if Rios did not look like death. An on weight (Not weight drained) Rios would have taken Murray out in three rounds IMO
And his face was unmarked.
That is on a par with Lederman’s comment, when he said Manny’s defence was better than JMM because of Marquez’s facial damage. Murray has been very prone to facialdamage & cuts at a far lower level. It was inevetable he would mark up if the fight went on to the middle rounds
Fact remains—Garcia has two undefaeted high level fighters in his camp and more on the way.
No doubt he does. He is a fine trainer. But Jake Ash’s point also remains in my eyes
but he is beginning to develop a history of irresponsibly putting his fighters in danger
by Sweet science on Dec 24, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
every time a fighter enters the ring he is in danger. i believe that one of the trainer’s most important jobs is to protect their fighters and minimize this inherent danger.
there are many articles about the dangers and sometimes fatal consequences of cutting weight the wrong way, especially in regards to dehydration and the effects on the brain. as his trainer, garcia should be held at least partially responsible for rios’ poor and dangerous physical condition coming into the murray fight. especially if the rumors are true that he was drinking very little water.
as for margarito, garcia’s irresponsibility has already permanently damaged margarito’s health. i mean, look at him. the guy doesn’t even go out in public anymore without wearing sunglasses.
when your fighter has trouble getting a license because of surgeries for “an orbital floor fracture, a giant retinal tear, cataract and vitreous detachment”; and when that eye is closed in his next fight; and then the ringside doctor recommends that the fight should be stopped; if you are seen arguing vehemently to let the fight continue i think you open yourself up for critisism that maybe, just maybe, you are in breach of one of your most important duties as a trainer, protecting your fighter.
here’s a link to a recent article by dr. margaret goodman titled “N.Y. Commission Failed Miserably When It Licensed Margarito” it’s an interesting read…
I'm not going to debate this point any longer, I'll simply write ablog on it and post it
on another site, but also on here.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Here is what my editor Robert Ecksel had to say about Anne and it is riveting.
I spoke with Wolfe for over an hour a couple of weeks ago for a feature I’m working on, and look forward to talking with her again next week. She is tough, as you say. No doubt about that. But what surprised me was how smart—not book smart but SMART—she is. She understands life in ways only a few of us can imagine (and I think you might be one of them). She is also, if this isn’t too off-the-wall, thoughtful, subtle, sensitive, and graceful, which took me by surprise. The way she uses language is almost Faulknerian, full of southern cadences, oblique references, and homespun truths. She listens and thinks and actually answers questions. Ann’s not just about Ann. To say I was impressed doesn’t even begin to cover it.
"Boxing is the red light district of sports."
—Jimmy Cannon
You say she needs to branch out
Do you think that being a women may hamper her in this? I know this is the 21st century and all…. But as boxing is as tough a sport as there is, will male boxers want to turn to a women? If so what is the best possible way to change this….. prejudice?
I guess she continues with her fine work with JK, and if a name fighter doesn’t seek her out, try and build a couple of prospect/Novices and work from there. Im sure she will make a success, but will she be fast tracked in the way a Garcia has been, or a Pedro Diaz will be (After his work with Cotto)
I really hope she gets her breaks like any other trainer would. From what Mr Ecksel reports, and with Kirklands W over Angulo, Wolfe seems like she could be great
Also, im guessing she is the first women trainer in the male Pro game? Im sure you will enlighten us if im wrong. Cheers
by Sweet science on Dec 19, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
I would think that her methods would hinder her more than her gender. Supposedly, she makes her fighters go through absolutely brutal training camps which would be objectionable to most fighters. She isn’t going to be training cute defensive fighters, just aggressive mean fighters. I would love to see her train Maidana. That would be a new kind of awesome.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 20, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
so true waldo.
a lot of fighters wouldn’t put up with that type of training camp, and to be fair it’s probably not the best training method for most fighters. it’s working for kirkland though…
there’s a great (and at times hilarious and heart breaking) interview with ann wolfe on last weeks leave it in the ring radio podcast.
some ann wolfe quotes from the liitr interview at about 94 minutes into the podcast:
“because i train so hard, i have whats called pre-camp. if i was to take them straight into camp, they couldnt handle it.”
“i try to train you till you vomit….till you shit on yourself. till you faint….till you hate me. thats why i don’t have a lot of people who wanna train with me…”
Christ, sounds like In need her to lose some weight
"Boxing is the red light district of sports."
—Jimmy Cannon
Nice work
But then, trainers have their prefrences
Steward loves a tall outside guy behind a brilliant jab (Hearns, Lewis. Wlad)
Roach works well with speed (Manny, Khan)
To name two
by Sweet science on Dec 20, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
The way she uses language is almost Faulknerian, full of southern cadences, oblique references, and homespun truths. She listens and thinks and actually answers questions. Ann’s not just about Ann. To say I was impressed doesn’t even begin to cover it.
This is in fact what I’ve found most interesting about her the more I’ve gotten to learn about her as she’s spoken to the press more often. She’s the exact sort of person I find most fascinating, actually.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 23, 2011 3:45 AM EST up reply actions
Also, im guessing she is the first women trainer in the male Pro game?
No, Jackie Kalen (who had Toney) and that little gal from Philly were before her and there were many others as well.Jackie was not a trainer as much as she was a manager.
Given the sexist politics in boxing, I suspect Ann might have some problems. But she strikes me as someone with tenacity who will fight for what is hers. I really like her. Maybe she should team up with someone like Garcia to get some juice. Not necessarily Garcia, but someone of some prominence.
"Boxing is the red light district of sports."
—Jimmy Cannon
If James stays cool and keeps winning, there’s your juice. I’d be surprised if she were interested or comfortable with teaming with anyone. Also, she’s training younger ones all the time as well. She’s good, and one or more of them will do well too.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Great points
(and a good post overall)
on Garcia and irresponsibility. Who knows if Ann Wolfe will turn out to be the type of trainer who, beside her laudable work with younger fighters, will work with or be comfortable working with a stable of fighters. Who cares?
She and Kirkland are unique. Forget the establishment figures who want to dismiss her is how I feel.
You have to have a stable to make serious money, unless money is not important to her.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Garcia and irresponsibility
Say more. I picked him as Trainer of the Year and I didn’t see any of that in 2011. I did in 2010.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
First, money does not =
ability or talent, and that is what’s being discussed here.
The responsibility charges have been well documented on this and other sites.
That they took place in 2010???
If a Jerry Sandusky molested boys ten years ago, he is still a molester, right?
Maybe you’re saying that Garcia has changed, okay, but that will be obvious over time.
And the fact that you picked him trainer of the year has nothing to do with anything beyond your picks.
The Brickhaus point below, however, is a very good one.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 8:30 AM EST up reply actions
who are YOU picking
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
The charges??
Are you serious—
Have you not read any of the threads? Not going to waste my time there.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
You mean about Margo and then Rios?
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
You make point and then back away.Geez
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Be serious--
Please.
Play your games with your redheaded stepchild, not me.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
No, you are the one backing Jake and I am the one not backing Jake. It's called a debate,
but if you want to make a pissing contest out of it, I can do that on ESB where I can properly tell you what I think of that pitifult and pathetic comment about he “red head” whoever the f—k hat happens to be. Your temper ad razore thin skin should warn you that I an be very nasty. You got issues, man up and email me. Don’t wash aundry in publis.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
laundry in public--typos
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
1) Who is Jake??
2) The points about Garcia were clearly laid out. You know that. Why take up space repeating?
3) If you give me attitude you’ll get it right back (that to address “pissing” contest).
4) I have little or no interest in how “nasty” you are.
5) The “issue” was, and is Garcia—plain and simple—and a matter of opinion alone.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, jake__ash
I forgot who I originally agreed with. Sorry, jake—
And yes, I admire her too. Thanks for the link to the article.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
jake_ash: I did read that
article—
Well put together and it paints a great picture of her.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
If you can'dt use emails to deal with your considerable angst, then I have no interest in going back and forth
here. I have sent you an email and you can deal with me there.:twisted: This is my last post on the subject becauise kit has nothing to do with the thread any onger which is the second time in recent memory that you have done that,.:twisted
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Oh Lord--
I’ll take a deep breath.
But that crap about the second time—
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
LMFAO
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
thanks don.
yeah, i get the feeling that she is not seeking to build a stable of high profile fighters. it just happened that an 11 year old james kirkland walked into the same gym as her. from what i’ve read and watched, it seems like her primary goal is to help kids through boxing the same way she was helped.
i think her training accomplishments may be more about the affect she is having on her boxer’s lives outside of the ring.
here’s a great article about her with several embeded videos at the bottom. some moving stuff, also james kirkland doing aerobics…
Rios mauled the Brit and turned his face into red pulp. am Bam was never in danger--
never—in that fight, Garcia has two prime undefeated fighters in his stable. How irresponsible of him!!! Wolf has one guy as far as I can determine and she has done agreat job with him vs a vis strength and endurance, but James still takes way too man shots. Ya follow?
I reckon he politically correct thing here is to go after Garcia becase of Margo, but I don’t like poiical correcness.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Segura's eye was worse than Margo's. So was Wolak's. Were thir managers irresonsible?
You want irresponsible, watch the Mathis-Holm fight. Or Donaire-Montiel.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Thats not irresponsable
That is criminal!
(Mathis – Holm)
by Sweet science on Dec 22, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
I have trouble lauding a trainer too much who doesn't seem to be able to teach much on defense
She could maybe use a solid assistant for that part of it, but it’s not like Wolfe herself fought any different than Kirkland does now.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
She has a bright future as a strength and conditioning coach or as a co-trainer. If she teamed up with another trainer like FM Sr., then she could have a stable. Man that would be the greatest partnership for 24/7 episodes. Could you imagine Anne in a 24/7 format?
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 21, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Anne & FM Snr
How long before Floyd gets KTFO?? 10 minutes into episode one?
by Sweet science on Dec 21, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
It would be so awesome, since she would shut him the fuck up within ten minutes. The bullshit barrier would be over quickly and then FM Snr could get some work in which would be the first time in a long while.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 21, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
She would shove that McDonalds so far up his behind
He will literaly be talking shit
by Sweet science on Dec 21, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
You mean Taco Bell?
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 21, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I have been preaching here.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
I don’t think teaming with anyone is in her nature. Too often means being coopted. I’m also not sure she’s really in it for big money. She likes kids, and I think she does it for them. Anything else is gravy. That’s my guess.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
mIGHT WELL BE RIGHT
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
+1
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
Meant for Bric
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
First time Senior opend his mouth, Ann would tell him to STFU.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant."
-- Vernon Forrest (1971-2009)
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