Current P4P List
by Chaos100 on Mar 13, 2011 3:35 PM EDT
Email
Print
I've been thinking about my own personal P4P list for a while now, and this evening I decided to just get it done. I referred to the Boxrec P4P list, which is at the link below, but I'm shocked at some of the placements on that list:
Anyhow, my own list took some thinking about, and some moving and shaking, but I thought I'd put it up for discussion on here, since I've not seen many recent lists from, well, anyone, to be honest. So, here goes:
1. Manny Pacquaio. I'm not sure I need to explain this much, if at all, but suffice it to say that right now Manny seems more like a force of nature than just a guy who beats people up. He's so far ahead of anyone else right now, it's hard to see how anyone can overtake him until he gets beaten or retires.
2. Nonito Donaire. I'm more and more impressed by this guy every time he fights, and if I'm honest I've gone from non-believer to captivated observer in the space of very few fights. I was a fan of Vic, I thought Vic would beat him, I'd have even picked Vic in a rematch. No more. That was no flash in the pan; he has beaten the fight out of every guy he has fought since, and there are a few really good fighters on that list.
3. Sergio Martinez. I'd have loved to put Sergio higher, since I love his style, I love his tenacity, I think in short that he's a genuinely fantastic fighter in pretty much every way. Questions regarding whether Floyd or Manny could step up and fight/beat Sergio are now looking a little unrealistic from where I'm sitting, and I'm frankly a little embarraassed to have suggested as much, great though they are. Last night's systematic destruction of Dzinziruk was a real master-class from Sergio, and left me feeling a little rueful that he has peaked so late. A very worthy #3, and a definite contender for #2. Martinez vs Donaire was one of the choices that gave me the biggest headache, and I could have just gone for doing the old 2a and 2b thing... but there is something about Donaire right now which makes me think that although Sergio is really damn special, Donaire might just have it in him to be even more damn special. It was a tough choice, and I can more than understand people who have it the other way.
4. Lucian Bute. Say what you like about the technical master-classes and defensive genius that some guys swear by, sometimes it's just nice to know the guy you're rooting for is heading out into that ring with the full intention of stopping his opponent as fast and ruthlessly as possible. In his last fight, Bute allowed Jesse Brinkley to hang with him longer than expected, but before that he knocked out Miranda, Zuniga and Andrade, all within 4 rounds, all viciously and in a no-frills style that I can both admire and appreciate. He's biding his time right now until the Super Six finishes, and this will inevitably have an impact on his calibre of opponent until then, and some could definitely argue that this ranking is too high. The proof will be in the pudding, though, and until his anticipated King-Maker fight with the winner of the Super Six (probably and hopefully Ward), I'm happy that Bute passes the eye test well enough to justify this standing.
5. Juan Manuel Marquez. Marquez is one of the guys I struggle to place. He has a proven track record, but is no longer the fighter he once was. Whether that necessarily drops him down lower than this is subjective, and in my own view Marquez still has enough class and guile to keep his place among the very elite of the sport.
6. Yuriorkis Gamboa. This kid is the single biggest reason Juan Manuel Lopez isn't a global star, in my opinion. Had Gamboa taken up accountancy rather than the sweet science, we'd probably be lauding JML as the second coming or something similar. The fact that there seems to be so much reluctance on the part of the JML camp to force the big fights, especially the one with Gamboa, leaves a slightly bad taste in the mouth, and has convinced me, anyway, that Gamboa is currently the main guy at 126. Gamboa is one of the fastest guys in the sport right now, whether in absolute terms or P4P, and his propensity for controlled but oh-so-effective violence has recently seen him knock out Rogers Mtagwa (the guy who took Lopez life-and-death in 2009) inside two rounds, and then thoroughly outclass Jonathon Victor Barros and Orlando Salido in wide points victories. Right now, I'm not sure there is anyone at 122, 126 or 130 that I'm picking over Gamboa.
7. Andre Ward. In a move that will surely enrage and perplex our friends in Oakland, I have neglected to put Ward as my undisputed King of All Boxers, and instead have him at a lowly #7.... His win over Kessler was a great one, but I was pretty convinced that Ward would have had more trouble fighting that way had he been anywhere but at home, given that he was using his head as a second jab for most of the fight. That said, he put Kessler in harm's way, kept the pressure on, and found a way to win, as all great fighters do. It hasn't always got to be pretty, and what Ward does often isn't, but he has proven that he can really fight. Putting the hurt on Sakio Bika was fun to watch, and like practically everyone in the universe, I'm desperate to see Ward face Bute. If he wins that one, he'll almost certainly jump up to #4 at the very worst.
8. Wladimir Klitschko. I'm not sure this will be popular, but I've changed my tune on Wlad as time has gone by. Okay, he once went down three times to a slow slugger. But you know what? He also won that fight, which should have told us all something about him. And he isn't perfect. Far from it. But he is really damn good. That jab is reminiscent of Holmes or Lewis, his footwork is beautiful to watch at times. He is technically brilliant, even if he isn't exciting, and he has made everybody he has faced in years look like a complete chump by comparison. Consider me a Wlad Klitschko convert.
9. Amir Khan. I don't like him, I don't even respect him very much. I don't like chinny fighters, I don't like guys who run off at the mouth about how great they are, or how great they are going to be. But I have to admit, Amir Khan is one of the most outrageously talented fighters in the sport right now. He has amazing hands, very quick feet, his reflexes are out of this world. Sort of like Roy Jones. And funnily enough, he's sort like how I'd have expected Roy Jones to react had his chin issues (if you swing that way) were found out early in his career, and as such Khan has now gone the Wlad Klitschko route to winning fights. Safe and sure. He dominated Paulie, he destroyed Salita (yeah, I said it) and he out-boxed a really good boxer in Kotelnik. Those were all well and good, but sometimes, like Andre Ward, a guy just needs to learn how to win. Khan showed me against Maidana that he has learnt a little of that. He rode his luck, he needed Maidana to do all the wrong things at that key point in the fight, but he still won, and that counts for a lot in my book. Boxing is not all a bed of roses, but sometimes you have to bleed on the thistles and thorns, admit you're not perfect, and settle for being able to say, "I won".
10. Miguel Cotto. Welcome back, Miguel. This might be weird, but right now, I do not think there are ten better fighters in the sport than Cotto. I think there may be ten guys who can beat him, but somehow in his case that doesn't equate to them being necessarily better than him, or maybe just doesn't equate to them being justifiably superior to him in these rankings. He has had a rough ride, he has beaten some fantastic fighters at 140, 147 and 154, he has been through wars, he has lost a couple, and he has kept his dignity intact and carried on taking on challenge after challenge, and for the most part, ending said challenges in triumph. All the things I don't like about Amir Khan are the reasons I do like Miguel Cotto: he is magnanimous in defeat, he is humble in victory, and yet, as the commentators forlast night's fight with Ricardo Mayorga kept saying: he goes in there and gets the job done. His track record speaks for itself, and he continues to beat *almost* everyone he fights. As of now, he's in. I'm not saying that beating an old Mayorga means anything, but Cotto was immaculate, skilled, and professional. Well worth his place.
Honourable Mentions:
Lopez- Fight Gamboa already. One gets the feeling he is being protected, and great fighters rarely are.
Bradley- I think his lack of power and over-enthusiasic use of the head would combine to get him into trouble against Khan.
Vitali- Solid case for inclusion, there are just some guys I think are a little classier, P4P.
Hopkins- My current #1 at 175, not really busy enough to justify breaking back into the rankings.
Mares- Maybe needs one more really good performance to crack into this list.
Haye- A win over Wlad probably puts him in at around #6.
Lemieux- I've seen nothing about him I don't like.
Froch- Needs to beat Johnson and probably Ward to be a real contender for inclusion.
Pascal/Dawson- Either one needs to triumph over Hopkins and/or the other before re-joining the elite.
Segura- Will probably find his way into serious contention for inclusion whould he beat Calderon again.
Oh yes, and Floyd..... I'm not classing Floyd as an active boxer right now. He's 34, he's threatened retirement too many times, and he hasn't done anything to justify remaining relevant in too long, besides all the stuff we don't want to know about any more already. Goodbye, Floyd.
Feel free to discuss, rip apart, or whatever, really. It was fun writing that out, and it'll be fun watching it get dismantled.... :)
FanPosts are user-created content written by community members of Bad Left Hook, and are generally not the work of our editors. Please do not source FanPosts as the work of Bad Left Hook.
471 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Sturm can’t be taken seriously as a P4P guy, with the guys he has faced over the years… Sato… I mean a Japanese middleweight ranked 29th in the world if that is somehow possiable?
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Martinez has beaten better and more world class fighters than Donaire… and in my opinion the best fighter after Pacman now that Mayweather is inactive.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I'd probably agree on Martinez over Donaire based on resume alone.
But in terms of the eye test, Donaire looks damn near unbeatable right now. That guy makes me really sit up and WATCH, y’know? But, as I said, I can more than understand people having Martinez at #2, and that was the hardest decision I had to make, to be honest.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Donaire over Martinez IMO
Darchinian was a world beater when Donaire knocked him out.
Pavlik was ‘world’ beaten when sergio beat him.
Donaire destroyed Sydorenko in his first fight at Bantam.
And then destroyed Montiel.
Martinez then beat two consecutive Junior Middleweights in defense of his MIddleweight title.
Pacquiao and Donaire are beating bigger men. Martinez smaller.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You know what?
Pacquiao and Donaire are beating bigger men. Martinez smaller.
I’d never even thought of it that way. I’m not in total agreement, as Williams was still a bigger man than Martinez, but you do make a fair point.
I still think I should have bottled it and just gone for 2a and 2b…. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
You have to keep your personal feelings out of these when you do them. I used to do
the ESB monthly divisional rankings and it took me hours. One good way to do it is to cross reference all the ranking and see which fighters pop up the most often—then add in your own. Now, I just look at BLH and compare it to mine and then put it up in my Club ARTCLES. Pound for pound is easier than doing some of the lower divsions. Mostrankers don’t know squat about Asia or South Americ and that’s where BLH shines. IMO, the Ring sucks and Box Rec suck even more.
There was no personal feeling involved in this list.
In fact, I like Sergio more than I like Donaire. I also included Khan, when I really don’t like him.
Martinez and Donaire was a really tough call, but I just think there is something about Donaire that really makes my spine tingle, in the same way as Pacquaio does, even when I’ve been rooting against Manny in the past.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Actually Martinez and Williams both came up in weight for their first fight, and Pavlik was a career middleweight, so smaller would only apply strictly to Dzinzurik, who was a career junior middleweight….but then so was Martinez till less than a couple of years ago
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
plus
an article on another site I read earlier got me to thinking that Martinez’s overall record really deserves to be a clear second and even close to 1.
Compare Cotto-Clottey-Margarito to Pavlik-Williams-Dzinzurik, especially given where the boxers were in their careers.
I was more impressed with Martinez’s this weekend than the Williams KO (he tried 4 times to land that overhand left before he got it) and for me even Williams at the time was a better scalp than the 34 yr old Sydorenko.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
As much as I love reading your views, and can see the logic in what you say:
the eye-test has to play a part somewhere in a P4P list.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
true
its all subjective ;)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I’d have Martinez at 2, and I’d have Ward at 4, and I’d probably bin Gamboa from the 10, but otherwise I pretty much concur. I think you’re absolutely right to have Khan in the top 10, and I also think Miguel Cotto’s done enough over the course of his career and in his past couple of fights to continue to warrant entry. I reckon I’d have Paul Williams rounding off the list, despite the Martinez loss. As far as I’m concerned, Williams is still one heck of a fighter, and, although his last couple of showings have obviously not been great, is still good enough to be considered a P4P top 10 guy.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 13, 2011 6:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Damn. I completely forgot Paul Williams.
I’d probably still not have himin my top 10 right now, as big as I’ve been on him before. I’d like to see what weight he comes back at, who he fights, and whether there is any discernible short-term or even long-term damage done to either his health or his style as a result of Sergio deciding to try to decapitate him.
Right now Bute’s power is what makes me put him in there at #4 ahead of Ward, as well as the fact I don’t think he exactly lacks much by way of technique, speed, tactics, etc. Even if he is slightly behind on those scores, that power he has is game-changing. Right now I’d pick Bute narrowly over Ward, but by the time they actually fight I might have seen enough to change my mind.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I agree with you about Ward and Martinez.
Still though, there might be a better way to voice your disapproval.
What? Huh? I thought I was refrerring to the Box Rec list? Did it belong to somone else?
I misunderstood. My bad.
No worries, I probably read it wrong. I did just finish midterms so my brain is appropriately shutting down right in time for spring break.
by glatin1982 on Mar 13, 2011 11:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This confused me. I would never say what I did about another poster's post. Not my style. My bad. My eyes are terrible as some know. I was injured in an exposion back in the late 60's and never fully recovered.
I’ve been thinking about my own personal P4P list for a while now, and this evening I decided to just get it done. I referred to the Boxrec P4P list, which is at the link below
Ohhhhh. Haha – OK. Now it makes sense, as yes, the BoxRec list is truly terrible.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
And bears zero similarity to my own list.....
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
1. Pac
2. Martinez
3.Doniare
4.Ward
5 Bute
6 Bradley
7JMM
8. Juan Manuel Lopez
9..Pongsaklek Wonjongkam,
19. Abner Mares
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam is a really good shout.
He should have at least made my HMs.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Mares was in my HMs.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Because I don't think he's a top ten fighter.
I thought that much was obvious.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
It's not sarcasm. It's honesty.
The two are direct opposites….
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Others closing in include Giovani Segura, Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Abner Mares, Chad Dawson, Bernard Hopkins, Jean Pascal, Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, and Marcos Maidana.
I seriously considered Maidana, but I just thought I was too biased in his favor, and if I put him in it would be because I like him, rather than because he deserved it.
Mind you, I stuck Tua in my Honourable Mentions last time I put one of these up…. I rather enjoyed that…. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
lol
catching up on this thread is comedy :) your man love for Tua is really deep hey ;)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Tua is fighting this weekend.
My whole week, pretty much, will be dominated by thinking about that fight.
Every time Tua fights, I spend the week before said fight just thinking about Tua fighting, and talking about Tua fighting. I am one boring motherfucker in any week leading up to a Tua fight.
Nothing in the whole sport right now fills me with the same sort of buzz. I love David Tua. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Tua is fighting a guy he will KO in the first minute. I have been asked for my opinion
by the NZ news and I said this fight is a dreadful mismatch and will prove nothing except to put King in harm’s way. If you watch, you best not blink.
I love Tua
but we all said he’d finish Barrett inside one round too.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Unfortunately, I think that may be the case. And probably is.
But he could shock me, come in for the fight at around 225/230, and look a bit quicker, a bit more mobile, and then we could have a really good fighter on our hands again.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure Tua is as worried about being the best he can be as I wish he was.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Too slow, too old, too fat, and too short, but he still has that one good
hook. He will KO King in 1 round.
I'd be surprised if it's that fast
King has a hell of a beard. I’m thinking he makes King quit on his stool after 6.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Well, if we were playing 'pin the tail on the donkey: closest wins', then Brick wins by brutal TKO on this one....
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Top 5
1. Pacquiao
2. Mayweather
3. Martinez
4. Ward
5. Juan Manuel Marquez
Mayweather, until proven otherwise, is still a world class elite fighter.
by glatin1982 on Mar 13, 2011 11:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don’t include Mayweather at this point for my P4P (which I keep loosely in my head), but if I did he would be definite No. 2.
1. Pacquiao
2. Martinez
3. Donaire — these two are neck-and-neck behind Manny and could go either way IMO
4. Marquez
5. Wladimir
6. Ward
7. Bute
After that I could pick or choose from about 15 guys for spots 8-10, all of whom have been named except Nkosinathi Joyi. Those are my solid top seven.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I don’t include Mayweather at this point for my P4P (which I keep loosely in my head), but if I did he would be definite No. 2.
I’m not sure he would get in ahead of Sergio or Donaire in mine now. I left Hopkins out of my list because he only fights once a year, despite the fact he just beat (in my opinion) the Ring Champ at 175. Floyd hasn’t fought a relevant opponent in years. I think the eye test gets him as far as #4, maybe. But he’s a guy of whom I have to ask now: “What have you done for me lately?”
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Honestly, I’d put Mayweather ahead of them because I think Mayweather is a goddamned genius inside the ring. I also think Roger is a genius when training Floyd and advising him during fights. The two of them are decidedly not geniuses in any other capacity.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
BUT>......
How can we judge just how good he is when he’s had 2 fights in 3 years, and of those two, neither was below the age of 37, and neither was really a relevant fight?
I’ll judge him again when he’s tested at all against anyone decent. Until then, he may as well be Anthony Small, acting like a show-pony against guys who have zero chance of beating him.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I count the Mosley he beat as every bit as credible as Clottey and Margarito, and more credible than the Mosley that Manny’s about to beat. This is not a “Manny versus Floyd” statement, because it all just is what it is at this point. Mosley was at worst the #3 welterweight in the world and his last fight before that had been demolishing Margarito. Yes Floyd dominated, and yes Floyd dominated in part because Shane was pretty old, but the fight did not meet any real backlash when it was signed other than “It’s not Floyd and Manny.” I mean, I see your point and all, and I didn’t even include Floyd because I basically consider him at large these days, but if I were to rank him — for the next month and a half before he’s been inactive for a calendar year — he’d still be #2 for me. In May I wouldn’t even be having this conversation. :)
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I can see your point, especially on Mosley.
And if that’s where he was ranked then so be it. But I personally would not have had Mosley as my #3 when he fought Floyd, I think he stopped being relevant in any ‘real’ way when he couldn’t beat Mora. I’m not happy at all that Manny is fighting him either, so it’s not like I’m having my cake AND eating it.
Let’s put it another way: Mosley was a way for Floyd to make a fight which helped him AVOID the best challenges in the division, rather than make a fight WITH one of the best challenges in the division.
In my eyes, the last relevant fight Floyd had was Hatton,and even then he was fighting a guy coming up, a guy you have continually labelled as ‘limited’ and a guy that almost no-one thought (outside of the UK) could win the fight.
I say again: Floyd hasn’t taken a real challenge in years. Until he does so, it’s really hard to judge how good he still is, or how much he still has. If I head down the pub and batter some guy who is smaller than me and poses little threat to me in said fight, I don’t think it matters how good I look doing it. Same logic applies to Floyd: until someone is put under the cosh, and taken out of their comfort zone, you never really can tell exactly how good they are. I mean, Pong looks great when he’s beating the tar out of no-hopers in Thailand, does that mean he also is great based on how much he outclasses these non-challengers?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Well, Shane was seen as a big challenge before the fight. In hindsight, he was older and slower than ever before, but when the Manny fight fell through, Mosley was the only feasible fight that anyone wanted to see.
As it is, Shane-Manny is a much worse fight. Shane’s now been torn to pieces by Floyd, and couldn’t really have looked much worse against Mora, even if Sergio’s a right bastard who’s pretty impossible to look good against…
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 15, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think before the fight
you could have conuted on the fingers of one hand on here the voices that thought Shane would be a big challenge before the fight. I know, I was one of them…..lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
But I personally would not have had Mosley as my #3 when he fought Floyd, I think he stopped being relevant in any ‘real’ way when he couldn’t beat Mora.
Wow, you can see the future? Mora happened five months after Mayweather.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that statement did seem somewhat dubious...
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha!
I’ve just seen this.
And yes, my crystal ball was working especially well that day. :)
(DISCLAIMER: Chaos100 accepts no liability for any losses incurred by idiots who actually think he has a crystal ball, and who subsequently ‘bet the farm’ on any of his predictions.)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Hmmm. Mora and Mosley draw and then Vera beats Mora. Doesn't say
much for SSM nor does it earn Pac accloades for taking the fight. IMOI
Donaire will soon put a distance behind him as he leaps beyond Sergio
He intends to beat bigger and bigger men….and I predict beats them…..while Sergio has thus far only fought and beat one legitimate middleweight; the title he defended last night.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I hate buying into hype this much, but I honestly see no one at 118 or 122 that I think even hangs with Donaire at this point, let alone beats him. And there are really good fighters in both divisions. If Donaire faces and rips Moreno, he probably grabs No. 2 by the throat for me, and that’s nothing at all against Martinez.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Scott, the hype is about Martinez
I am actaully amazed that otherwise sober fans (oxymoron) are so high on Martinez after last night’s victory over Ring Magazine’s 7th ranked junior middleweight !!
Donaire is the real deal. I would not be surprised to see him fight up and beat up men two divisions higher
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Ring Magazine’s ranking of Dzinziruk has been absurdly low for years. They also have Sechew Powell #5 and Yuri Foreman #6. I’d have bet everything I own on Dzinziruk beating both of them at any point over the last however long they’ve all been relevant. Same with Vanes Martirosyan, who they’ve also ranked higher than Dzinziruk.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I can't agree or disagree
What I can say is that for last almost eight years, he has not finished an opponent inside of of ten rounds. Martinez could have carried his hands in in pants and not have to worry about his power.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
They also have Sechew Powell #5 and Yuri Foreman #6. I’d have bet everything I own on Dzinziruk beating both of them in the same night.
Fixed it for you ;)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Donaire is the real deal.
Martinez is not a hype job, he’s as real a deal as anybody ever was. And his fitness trainer’s not named Victor Conte.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Victor Conte is the fitness trainerof a lot of top athletes these days. Amercians love to forgive and I guess he is entitled to forgiveness if
most everyone else is. I would not condem Donair for the association at this point in time.
He was and is a great guitar player as well and he and his cousin Bruce onec played for
the great Tower of Power band. Little trivia for the buffs.
forgiveness is fine.
trust is another matter.. You’ve made the remark before that “Americans love to forgive. . . .” and I don’t buy it. What—I’m un-American if I don’t trust Victor Conte? Or merely unChristian, which I proudly am? He worked with a lot of top athletes those other days too, means nothing. the guy is creepy, and I don’t have to like it. And I don’t like it.
And I don’t trust anything he’s connected with, and I never will.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
What—I’m un-American if I don’t trust Victor Conte? Or merely unChristian, which I proudly am?
Forgive me, but I think you’ve taken that comment out of context. I’m not sure Ted was saying anything like that.
I read that as just a throw-away comment, a generalization with no implied criticism.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
No offense to Ted,
none intended, BUT: I don’t think I did take it out of context—when last so enjoined, I was expected to “forgive” Margocheato’s wraps. Didn’t go for that either. It’s a kind of oh, just let it go, go along with the crowd, don’t spoil a good time attitude I just don’t share, and essentially distrust. Forgiveness is not the issue here—trust is the issue. I don’t trust Javier Capetillo, Panama Lewis, or Victor Conte, maybe especially Victor Conte (sneakier), and by extension, can not, with really huge regret in this instance, trust fighters they work with because I don’t think they neccessarily know. Neither does that translate to blaming those fighters, any more than I blame any trusting athlete led astray by creeps, or neccessarily believing Donaire is guilty of anything at all—been enjoying his wins for several years, think he’s wonderful. But I can no longer trust the state he’s in, so I can no longer rate him accurately.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I never knew that actually
thats a really interesting stance, to say the least, and well put ;)
Couple of questions….one, is there any point in the future where you would trust Conte again? Or is that pretty much it?
And two, as its causing so much heat down below, (and I’m interested too) who would you otherwise have higher, Donaire or Martinez?
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Conte is done.
Even if I could trust Donaire’s situation, I’d have him below Martinez, but I’m sort of a Martinez junkie.
Conte is done, because it’s too dangerous to permit someone who knows how to chemically “load gloves” undetectably anywhere near athletes in this dangerous, dangerous game—too much at stake, namely lives. You can’t ever be sure with some one like that, there’s no way to prevent the harm. At least with the other two, it’s mechanical, and can be guarded against by simple vigilance. Putting Conte back in the game is like putting convicted spies in charge at Quantico
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
my hazy recollection is
that Conte was sort of helping with his inside knowledge, which was clearly extensive, to assist in tightening up the rules/testing system so that fewer drugs cheats got through. So that has to be a real positive.
I can’t say I really followed it That closely though. I think that its a little dubious to say the least that he’s working with athletes again in a similar capacity to before, but he must have given out a lot of information for him to be allowed to do so. I’m not in the ‘once a cheat, always a cheat’ camp, but maybe its not the best personal decision of those athlete’s careers to start working with someone so notorious.
Anyway, I don’t know all the details, and I will find out etc, but you gave me something to think about morally there ;-)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Conte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BALCO_Scandal
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
thanks! ;-)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
because I don’t think they neccessarily know.
regarding PEDs. The handwrap fighters had to know. But Conte’s fighters (or any other PEDs trainer’s fighters)—what did they know, how could they know? Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t, benefit of the doubt there.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I don’t necessarily think the handwrap fighters Had to know, though. I’ve seen the cameras on boxers while they’re having their hands wrapped, and they’re listening to music/looking at the ceiling or all around/talking, generally. They’re paying no notice to their hands being wrapped because its been done hundreds of times and is just not that interesting. I remember I watched it the first couple of times, but that was because it was all new…..lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
And I've said before that I never watched my hands being wrapped. I hated it.
And there are lots of interesting quotes in the Hauser article on Margarito from really well known, respected and established trainers, who all say if they wanted to they could load their guy’s gloves and he’d never know. Manny Steward, Freddie Roach, Pat Burns…..
I quoted a couple of them here:
http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/9/16/1692130/antonio-margarito-a-boxing-fans
Those quotes, and my own experience of hating having my hands wrapped, are the reason I simply cannot absolutely condemn Margarito as a cheat, as much as I personally feel he probably did know, and probably was a dyed in the wool asshole/cheat/scumbag.
So, no, I don’t think it’s fair to say:
The handwrap fighters had to know.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
The Hauser article:
http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/antonio-margarito-and-the-handwrap-issue
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
We can never know
and it’s easy to imagine that while being wrapped, and immediately thereafter, they might not know, but hands are among the most sensitive things human bodies have, and as the wraps harden, they burn, if they’re plaster, the skin of the hand, not even the heat of battle could disguise it, to my mind. And hardener would become at least uncomfortable, it not painful, when punches connected, surely. However, although I truly believe they’ve got to know, you’re right, there’s a reasonable doubt.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Missed my point. Americans love to forgive after a period of time goes by. I believe that.
You totally missed my point. Has absolutley nothing to do with being un-American. My post simply said Conte is training top athletes these days on the West Coast. WTF does thhta have to do with being a Chistian (which I am though it’s my own concern and I don’t ask others to be one). You are being way too touchy, but being an American, I am willing to forgive you—after a period of time. lol
I would not condem Donair for the association at this point in time
Neither would I—but neither can I trust his situation, which puts him on the watch list for me.
You are being way too touchy,
Don’t think so. It’s a “come-along, go-along, you’ll love it our way” manner of speaking, and I’m instinctively suspicious of it, usually to good end. And don’t think Americans have, or ever will, when extending second chances to fraudsters, child molesters or crimes-of-violence convicted persons etc. be so crazy as to re-enable them in the same venue: You don’t put the convicted pedophile in the schoolroom, you don’t put the violent thief behind the gun counter, you don’t put the embezzeler back at the bank. It’s not news that boxing is on the Bunny Planet in this regard, but it nonetheless continues to astonish and appall me, as it does here. So with huge regret I remain unable to join this party.
And it really is with real regret. When I first came back to boxing, amazed and outright overwhelmed at the global nature and huge number of names/players (and the exuberant, bespangled efforts at self-expression on their clothes)—he was the first kid I could automatically recognize, with his remarkable propensity for winning, engaging personality, and unmistakable high red socks. I felt for the injustice of his not getting more attention and money, and wish I could be gladder at his success. Nor do I wish him ill, or think he’s automatically guilty of anything other than (along with others) letting the fox in among the chickens, but that bothers me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Newly Published Article re Conte,
some stuff on Donaire near end of article
http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_17627687?source=rss&nclick_check=1
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
1. Pacquiao
2. Martinez
3. Marquez
4. Donaire
5. Wlad
6. Bradley
7. Pong
As with Scott’s list, there’s a bunch of guys in contention for the remaining spots on mine.
I'm interested in Marquez over Donaire.... feel like sharing? :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Didn't you use to say that your lists were a 'snapshot in time'?
Therefore, surely you just go for the guy who is better at that point in time, with no regard for their futuristic upside, or age?
Or do I misunderstand what you mean?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
You misundertsand. Everything is a snapshot in tome unless you are doing a historical list.
Cotto would be high 5 years ago. Today he is questiionable at best. Today is today. Donaire is prime today.I don’t think JMM. is prime, though he is still very good. I take prime good over past good every day of the week.
Isn't that what I just said?
Therefore, surely you just go for the guy who is better at that point in time, with no regard for their futuristic upside, or age?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Yup.
Quite clearly, in fact.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
get a room, guys :)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
You are adding your own thoughts to my post. My post is Donaire ranks higher than JMM
at this point in time. I could rate SRR higher, but it would not be at this point in time. I am now done here. Enjoy
I also have Donaire higher than Marquez.
But that’s because right now (snapshot in time) I think Donaire is a better fighter than JMM.
Not because one is in his prime and the other isn’t.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Each to his own. But it's important to respct another's position.Particularly when it's
your article.
Last month, I would have had Montiel on the list. This month I have Mares.
That’s what a snapshot in time means. Also, it’s aterm used in Ecomonic Forecasting. It’s not a novel concept. My last post for abit as I am now on the road heading south.
I think I weigh fighters’ recent work more heavily than my perception of their skills. Donaire has looked great no doubt, but I think the Montiel fight was his first really high quality victory in a long time. His win over Vic is no doubt very good as well, but it was over 3 years ago. Marquez has no win as great as Donaire’s over Montiel recently, but I feel like his body of work at lightweight over his last 5 fights (winning the lineal championship and taking on two of the biggest contenders in the division in Katsidis and Diaz I) gives him the edge for me.
Some good points.
I do like hearing how people go about compiling their P4P lists. So many different methods, so much variance in where emphasis lies. I find it almost as interesting as the P4P lists themselves.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Oh yes, and Floyd….. I’m not classing Floyd as an active boxer right now. He’s 34, he’s threatened retirement too many times, and he hasn’t done anything to justify remaining relevant in too long, besides all the stuff we don’t want to know about any more already. Goodbye, Floyd.
Spot on
+1
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
1. Pacman
Way ahead of the pack
2. Nonito
3. Sergio
Could go with either really
4. Marquez
Still proven. Still a top top fighter.
5. Ward
6. Bute
Again find it difficult to separate them. I put Ward in front mainly due to his competition.
7. Wlad.
Dominates everyone he faces. Hasn’t lost a round in about a million years….. Will move up if he dominates Haye in the same fashion.
After this, like most people you have a load of fighters who could put forward a pretty decent case. From Gamboa, Khan, Bradley, Lopez…. well you could go on and on
almost the same:
1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Sergio Martinez
3. Juan Manuel Marquez’
4. Andre Ward
5. Lucian Bute
6. Wlad Klitschko
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Miguel Cotto
9. Poonsaklek Wonjongkam
10. Amir Khan
Subject change without notice based on ricochet whim.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Wow.
Donaire doesn’t even make it into your top ten?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Also, as I said to Brick, really glad to see that someone else has Cotto, Wlad AND Khan in their top ten.
“Horrible”, “disgusting” and “disgraceful” as they may be, according to some.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Who, BoxAnne? Brick doesn't have him in there. Kahn has fought only one opponent that entitles him
major respect and against that opponent, he showed he had a RingIQ that might be somewhat troubling. Why try to engage a crunching brwler in a brawl when you are on the way to a clear points win? That kind of macho mentality will get him chilled if he is not careful and certainly does not get him on MY list.
I agree that was a mistake, and he was lucky to get away with it.
But I also said that I give credit to guys who can go to hell and back and still have their hand raised after the final bell. I’m no fan of Amir Khan the man, he’s not really my cup of tea as a fighter, but he is really bloody good. Sometimes those occasions can be character-building. :)
And Brick doesn’t have Khan, but he does have Cotto and Wlad. Myself and BoxAnne have all three. Just saying. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I have all three too!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 15, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Hardly.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think his wins over Kotelnik and Maidana were very, very good, and the Malignaggi one wasn’t bad either. Moreover, I think he just has outstanding all-round abilty.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, Oli.
And now he’s shown the balls to actually fight Maidana (which I honestly thought he wouldn’t do) and the heart to come through with the win despite the trials and tribulations therein, I have to class him not just as a talented guy who is aesthetically pleasing to watch, but as a guy who is actually learning to use said talent to win tough fights.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I do, too, quite honestly.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, its gone from absolutely atrocious to just bad.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 18, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure--thicker than usual
last few days, but not sure what you’re asking, or I’d try to answer—who is Who?
If Khan, I don’t think Khan is terribly bright, in or out of ring, and don’t expect him to go as far as some expect, but right now today he’s quite brave, did improve masterfully over the past, and is very popular, which is part of these lists, to my mind. He’s exciting, and he wins. And he’s good, very good—not just flashy.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I'm too fat to dance. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
by all means,
but I’m not sure what’s meant for BoxAnne at this point. I think “reply” went wacky.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Mine
Top 6 are set in stone for the time being…after that, there are about 20 guys who are fairly interchangeable.
1. Pacquiao
2. Mayweather
3. Martinez
4. Donaire
5. Marquez
6. W. Klitschko
7. Bradley
8. JM Lopez
9. Ward
10. Cotto
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Bradley over Khan?
I mean, I like Bradley a whole lot more (although his headbutting is getting on my nerves) but I think Khan whoops him.
Also, glad to see someone else have Cotto and Wlad in the list. I know some people think they are horrible, disgusting choices, but I think they more than merit their place.
I’m interested in Lopez over Gamboa, too? That one fascinates me. After seeing their respective fights with Mtagwa, I think Gamboa has Lopez for breakfast every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Also, you spelt Bute wrong. It’s B-U-T-E, not M-A-Y-W……………………. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
All of these can be answered
By my response that I base P4P rankings on actual wins and losses in the ring a lot more than who I think is better than whom.
I’d probably have Khan and Bute at 11 and 12, respectively, and Gamboa’s in that mix as well, albeit probably a little lower. I really like Gamboa and I was probably the first non-Cuban on his bandwagon (I’ve been all over him since his third pro fight), but beating Orlando Salido and a bunch of fringe contenders doesn’t put him in the top 10 quite yet. Lopez has just faced much better opposition overall, plus he’s done it moving up in weight.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And FWIW
If Khan-Bradley happens and there’s a convincing winner, that guy probably moves all the way up to #4 or #5.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I'd have to think hard about whether the winner passes Donaire
If Donaire goes back to fighting creampuffs, then on the whole, either of their record of wins would be better than Donaire, even though I think Donaire is a better fighter overall than either of them.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
even though I think Donaire is a better fighter overall than either of them.
That’s pretty much what I base my rankings on, with sprinklings of resume thrown in…..
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Klit, and Cotto. Hmmm, I. Replace Cotto with the Thai,
get Abner Mares in there (apparntly no one knows too much about him), and Lordy, put Bute in there. Heavyweights (except Ali) seldom are included in P4P rankings. Cotto loses points for going almost 12 rounds with a shot Mayo,
I think we all know Mares — my gut feeling is you might be jumping the gun putting him so high. That or you’re ahead of the curve. We’ll find out with Agbeko, which is nice.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought about Pong at 10
And I’ve downgraded him recently. He struggled against some so-so fighters lately, and while his overall record is impressive, his recent record is less so outside of the Kameda win.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Cotto's perfomance against Mayo removes him from any serious consideration.
Gamboa has been hot and cold and may suffer the “Cuban Sensarion Syndrome” if he is extended into the late rounds.
Wlad is a difficult one. I just have not seen a heavyweight capable of P4P slotting since Ali.
I don’t particularly enjoy watching Wlad fight, but I’m so impressed with him when I do. As Sweet Science noted above, Wlad hasn’t lost a round in YEARS. It’s not entertainment, it’s not explosive, but that is evidence of some real ability. He never takes a round off, never loses concentration, never comes in out of shape of losing focus… he’s a cyborg. Plain and simple. :)
A lot of people thought Cotto was really sharp the other night. I was one of them.
Do you think Gamboa beats Lopez? or vice versa?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
its amazing the divergence of opinion on the Cotto fight...
I swear, even I more than half fancied against Mayorga after seeing his last fight. I know that Cotto is not a concussive one shot merchant or anything, but I thought that the accumulation of punches would tell before half way and he would literally box circles round him. 12 rounds….(shakes head sadly)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
even I more than half fancied it* lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Not even Tyson at his peak? I know he was up there and even topping a lot of P4P lists at the time. I’m not arguing with you because Tyson at his peak came when I was about four years old so I don’t have proper context, just wondering how you saw it then.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I was also going to ask this question.
I’d also seriously consider Lewis and Holmes at their peaks in any discussion. I mean, I have Lewis as my #1 heavyweight ever, so it’d be stupid of me not to at least ask the question about him.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Why Lewis as your number 1
Just curious?
by Sweet science on Mar 16, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That's another conversation for another day, or post, probably.
But rather than seem rude, or blunt, I’ll just say that he was too big, and moved really bloody fast for a big man. I don’t think Lewis is a P4P all-timer, and I’m not even sure if he was a P4P Heavyweight all-timer, but in a straight fight between him and any other guy at heavyweight, I’m picking Lewis.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
good answer
I take it you don’t have him as P4P heavyweight because of the size differentials of the olden days. I think maybe Foreman and Ali would beat him. But thats hypothetical
Having said that, Lewis at his best, for me Rahman II, could beat anyone. His conscistency wasn’t the best though
by Sweet science on Mar 18, 2011 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
larry and tyson were certainly p4p in their primes imo.
evander as well.
wlad? not so much.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
by sonofapsycho on Mar 14, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, Maybe Tyson at his peak which was not all the long when you think about it. Holmes fought during
a time when there were so many others at lower weights, but he too could be in the mix.
Gamboa-Lopez is a pick em. Wlad is too ponderous to be a p4p imo. Cotto is totally done as a top level, meaningful
fighter. The Ghost of Magro has made him that way.
‘Boxing is not all a bed of roses, but sometimes you have to bleed on the thistles and thorns, admit you’re not perfect, and settle for being able to say, “I won”.
nice turn of phrase there ;-) I only just really read this…lol just looked at names and numbers before…
On the actual list, I would have Martinez a clear number two and that’s my main point of difference, really.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Thanks, dude.
I had a lotmore respect for Andy Murray when he took on Brad Gilbert andGilbert taught him how to ‘win ugly’.
Khan isn’t suddenly some sort of immovable object, but many other guys would have folded in that tenth round against Maidana, and I can at least appreciate the balls it took to come out of that fight with a win.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
great book, that
and look at Murray’s career trajectory after getting rid of him…stalled ;( complete disaster, especially given that he has shown the quality to beat the top 3 in non Slam events….
It was more than balls from Khan….he is no longer chinny! ;-) The chin than Gomez and Limond cracked would have been splintered into smithereens by Maidana….all the sages with ‘you can’t put muscle on your chin’ etc etc…..ridiculing his excuses of bad balance and feeling drained at the weight ;-) Although I still can’t believe it stood up as good as that…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Or the stupidity it took to get himself in harms way after he had alock on the fight. You
can look at it either way.
hopefully DeGale and Fury will be at the front of that
Everyone knows about DeGale, but I think Fury is really improving too :-)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
British scene is buzzing at the moment
I actually really like Burns at the moment. Not great talent, but good fundamentals and very dedicated. Deserves every dime he makes out of his stint as champion
by Sweet science on Mar 16, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankie Gavin has really become my favorite of the bunch. Before I just liked him the best. Now I think he might actually be the best of them, and I think there are a bunch of them that have high ceilings.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Gavin will ever be better than DeGale, P4P.
and I HATE DeGale.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I would take the bet, if I get nice odds.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha!!
Nice odds?
You’re the one saying he’ll be lord of all!! I should be the one getting odds!! :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
You make it quite clear that you’re incredibly confident I’m wrong. So I’d want odds. I think we can agree I’m rooting for the underdog in this case — I don’t dispute that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
'incredibly confident'.... you're raving :P
All I said was “I don’t think Gavin will ever be better than DeGale, P4P. and I HATE DeGale.”
I’m not sure that’s the exhibition of ‘incredible confidence’…. rather it was just the expression of my opinion.
Nice try, though… ;)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
'a jones'?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
‘a jones’ is a heroin habit, i.e., an addiction, similar to ‘monkey on my back.’ That’s a definition only, not an agreement that you do.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
If that's what that means
then I have no idea how that could possibly be aimed at me.
I like Gavin ok, I suppose, but… I’m not even a fan of him, really.
I think that comment must have been aimed at Scott.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
sorry, didn't follow the exchange closely--
anyway, that’s what it means.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
No problems :)
I think Ted accidently replied to my comment, which was in turn a reply to Scott’s.
That’s what confused me. In context, I assumed a ‘jones’ was a ‘dislike’, or even a ‘disregard’, which is why it confused me. I’ve not seen the term before.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
DeGale is smarter and more disciplined
But Gavin is more talented and natural. If Gavin can harness his natural talent, and stay healthy (which is starting to become an issue) I do think he’s good enough to be a future top 5 P4Per. I know he doesn’t have the right skintone or whatever, but Gavin really reminds me a lot of a young Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
thats remarkably high praise
I have never personally seen it, and there seems to be some weird reason why I’ve never particularly taken to Gavin, but must watch closer from now as he steps up a bit in class from now.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Gavin has been too stop start up untill now. He has the potential to become a great fighter, but only if his body allows him to be.
If he can build some momentum, I would happily pick him over the leftovers Khan leaves in April
by Sweet science on Mar 16, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
thoughts on Fury?
he’s not the first name people talk of, I know, as his mouth seems to outstrip his talent…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Before Nascimento:
I thought Fury was all sizzle and no steak.
Now…. I think he might even sneak into my top 15 at heavyweight, and maybe even the top 10. I think he’s a really difficult fight for most guys in the division, with the obvious exceptions.
I’d like to see Fury fight Dimitrenko. I’d be REALLY interested to see how that one would pan out.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I think Fury right now would be eaten alive by guys who know what they’re doing. I mean, he does improve in every fight, but he’s improving against Nascimento and RICH POWER!!, who has a tremendous name and…well, he’s got a tremendous name. The more I think about it and look at their recent fights, the more I think Chisora might really beat the crap out of him because he’s just not mentally ready. He had big issues with McDermott and probably would have lost to him, but McDermott isn’t exactly, uh, a conditioning coach’s dream.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
He also improved in the rematch with McDermott, even though he had all sorts of issues prior to that one too, and Nascimento in particular came to the fight in shape and with very real power. Chisora’s never beaten anyone close to McDermott’s level (he’s not in shape, but he can box some) – he had already beaten the undersized Sam Sexton earlier in his career, Danny Williams was completely uninterested and there’s nothing else at all.
I’ve seen a lot of Fury and Chisora, and I don’t believe Chisora wants the fight or can win it if he actually has to defend against him. He’s less mentally ready than Fury to go at it.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Nascimento in particular came to the fight in shape and with very real power
Very real power and absolutely no skill whatsoever. You may be right about Chisora, though — in thinking about Fury’s development and the fact that it has come against shoddy opposition, I allowed myself to forget that Dereck Chisora doesn’t exactly wow me. But Fury’s defense is just so leaky, and Chisora is so aggressive.
Hell, this is why I want to see the fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure if Chisora hits hard enough to really take Fury into deep waters....
I like Chisora (in the ring) and I like the fact he has a big cast-iron set, I like the fact he is, as you put it recently, ‘not a nice bloke’, and I like the fact he always comes to fight. But I’m dubiou about how much power he actually carries, and a 265lb 6’9’’ Tyson Fury will take some stopping, I think.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
yeah
I think he will have a lot harder task bullying Fury with impunity like he normally gets to do with his other opponents
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I thought Sexton was a good win.
Sexton really improved over his couple of fights with Rogan, and he fought respectably in his recent fight with Chisora too. I agree on Williams, but I do think Sexton was a good win.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
to be fair, I think it was actually his best win. He was a lot bigger than Sexton the first time they fought. But I don’t think Sexton is at McDermott’s level…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Sexton/McDermott would be a decent scrap. I'd certainly watch it.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I don’t believe Chisora wants the fight
Huh?
He’s willing to take on Wlad, but you think he doesn’t want to fight Fury?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
every time I’ve seen him interviewed about Fury, he starts looking up, down and sideways and mumbles with no conviction, as though he’d rather be anywhere but there.
I think he wanted the Wlad fight for the money…he would still have retained whatever belt he has now to defend after, so challenging Wlad made far more financial sense.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
He'll probably get paid nearly as well to fight Fury
IIRC, he was only getting EU400k to fight Wlad.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
me too
but then he’s only 22, and he has time. He wants to be a ‘mandatory not a voluntary’ lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
:(
he’s 22, he has time :)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
that happened the One Time, One!! :)
it was an accident….don’t let that taint everything he might do in the future (which may or may not amount to much, depending how hard he works…)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I thought he took the shot well.... ;)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
He's one of several with the tools to be in the mix after the Klits retire
I really like how he improves so much from fight to fight, but he still needs to put in a lot of work. Still a half-notch below Helenius and Pulev for me, in terms of HW prospects.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Fury!!!!!!!!!! lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Off Topic: Kirkland Alert
He will be fighting Jhon Berrio, 15-8-0-11, on March 18 on thr untelevised portion of theTelefutura undercard, but the two fights listed for telecast will likely only last about 3 seconds, so there is some chance Kirkland’s fight will be aired. In any case, there’d be highlights.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
1. Pac – duh. winning.
2. Ninito – he and martinez and 2 and 2a pretty much.
3. Sergio Martinez
4. Andre Ward – bute’s competition nowhere close to his. i pick him over bute in a fight as well.
5. Hopkins – still incredible.
6. Gamboa – i don’t see lopez taking his tampon out and fighting him anytime soon.
7. JMM – ready for the taking
8. Bute – i’m not nearly impressed as everyone else is with wins over miranda (whos beyond awful), brinkley and andrade (whos not much more talented as miranda.)
9. Bradley – very deserving.
10. Paul Williams – still damn good. wouldn’t be surprised if hes iced in his next fight again though.
just missed cut: king arthur williams, holyfield, czyz, o’grady.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
Here's my reason for Donaire over Martinez
It’s context.
Donaire wiped out Montiel who had, less that a year earlier, gone to Japan and brought back Hasegawa’s belt on a stoppage. In other words, he had beat, I should say destroyed, the champ that beat the champ.
That, plus his decimation of Sydorenko, was Donaire’s year.
Martinez, I think you know where I’m going. He beat Kelly Pavlik, who for all intent and purposes, in BossMan’s words, was a ‘ruined’ fighter. Then he destroyed Paul Williams in a rematch after Williams had escaped …or was it Cintron who escaped….Kermit Cintron. Either way, Sergio beat him. Then he whooped Dz.
IMNSHO, Donaire’s beating the man that beat the man in the last year trumps beating two men who, if we look closer, had iffy fights and times in the run up to their fights together.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You’re giving full credit for Sidorenko but poo-pooing Dzinziruk? You’re really reaching at this point. Not in your conclusion that Donaire is better than Martinez, because I think that’s fine and dandy and they both kick ass, but in trying to completely tear down the very idea that Sergio Martinez even belongs in the conversation. I could counter with plenty about Donaire that isn’t so OH GOD HE’S THE GREATEST ISN’T HE-type stuff, but I think they’re both excellent fighters and am not jonesing to discredit either of them, as I don’t think they deserve that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I threw in Siderenko to balance out Dz. Neithere one of much consequence.
Subtract them both and Donaire is the man that beat the man.
I still have him on top.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
eh, the WBC Man
Though Montiel was already the WBO Man, a title that Montiel won (interim style) against Diego Oscar Silva, and then got full recognition from…uh, somewhere, but his first defense of that killer crown was against Ciso Morales, which was a matchmaking disgrace. There’s also the IBF Man (Joseph Agbeko) and the WBA Man (Anselmo Moreno). It’s like a Mega Man villain screen.
It’s not really a counter about Donaire, but he’s hardly flawless and it’s not like all of his wins are incredible. Montiel beat Hasegawa, who then immediately jumped two weight classes he was having such a horrible time making 118 pounds. Montiel had also been lucky just to get past Alejandro Valdez (and I mean lucky lucky) in Sept. ‘09. Sidorenko is a credible fighter, like Dzinziruk but IMO a bit less so, but he’d also been beaten twice in Germany by Moreno, and German-based guys losing in Germany is no easy task. And if Dzin is “feather fisted,” then feathers would be rocks in Sidorenko’s world. Hell, Sidorenko had gone 4-2-2 in his last eight, and it can easily be argued that it should have been 4-4, since both his draws against Cordoba were debatable.
And before that, what had Donaire been doing? Manuel Vargas is a junior flyweight he fought at super flyweight. Granted on short notice, but the original opponent (Gerson Guerrero) was no better at all. Rafael Concepcion hung around a lot better than it seems some remember (17-11, 16-12, 15-13 scores) and the fight against Hernan Marquez was laughable. Donaire fought left-handed until he felt like stopping, for God’s sake.
It’s not hard to poke holes in a lot of what he’s done. But my eyes are telling me he’s very special. They do the same with Martinez right now. Long-term, obviously Donaire has the remaining upside. By his own admission Sergio is maxed out for fighting weight at 160, while I cautiously feel the sky’s the limit for Donaire in that regard (I’m thinking lightweight in my crazy mind at this point). Donaire looks like a scary-good fighter right now, but Martinez is doing equal business against very good fighters. Just my opinion, and I’ll gladly leave it there. I reckon it’s been fruitful enough a conversation.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It has indeed.
And as we both know, P4P is in many ways a popularity contest. Subjective to say the least.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
And I welcome your counter about Donaire, Scott
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Like Scott, I don’t really have an interest in tearing down other fighters, but I fail to understand what you mean by “the man” or “the champ.” I don’t know anyone who recognized Montiel as the legitimate champ of his division nor have I heard anyone even suggest a lineage started with his victory over Hasegawa. He was arguably the best in the division, but still only held trinkets. To be “the man” at bantamweight, Donaire must defeat Moreno and/or Agbeko/Mares.
Pavlik by contrast was the lineal and legitimate middleweight champion, ruined fighter or not. He was “the man that beat the man” at middleweight, even if he had iffy fights and lost above his weight (just as Hatton did prior to the Pacquiao fight). Donaire has a case for being at number two, but basing it on beating the recognized king of a division is an odd way to make that argument, since for most analysts Martinez is the only one who accomplished that.
I'm gonna make two comparisons between 'stuff you say'.
1. Pavlik, who was the legit lineal champ at 160, is ‘ruined’, while Hatton at 140 was the ‘undisputed undefeated champ at 140’ when Pacquaio came calling. Anyone spot an agenda here?
2. Pavlik, who was the legit lineal champ at 160, is ‘ruined’, while Montiel is the guy who beat the guy who beat the guy.
Do you even SEE the double standards in what you write?
And this is coming from someone else (me) who had Donaire above Martinez. I just think you need to make a decision about a set of standards you’re going to uphold, and then stick to them, regardless of your own little agendas. At the moment, you come off as inconsistent in your views practically all the time, and for want of a better word, it smacks of insincerity.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Can you tell me that Pavlik, knowing everything you know now, was not ‘ruined". No, you can’t nor should you …..because he was a mess.
His team has now openly acknowledged that they had been covering for him; in total denial of how badly he was abusing what they wanted to believe were acceptable levels of drinking. That is clinically referred to as enabling. His health was a mess. And his head obviously worse.
Now yes, Ricky Hatton was not the same fighter at welter. A lifetime junior welter, he was way out of his league when he strayed beyond. Floyd Mayweather put an end to his flirtation at welterweight. Well, let me condition that statement. Hatton did annoy Floyd with a certain aggression before Floyd introduced him personally to the turnbuckle in his corner.
But Hatton had reigned for years as the undisputed and undefeated light welter weight champion of the world. After losing for the first time, he returned to 140 and quite convicingly beat a once defeated Paulie Malignaggi, a light- fisted but elite opponent.
Malignaggi set up his battle with Manny.
Espino and Rubio set up Pavliks with Sergio.
In other words, Hatton was preparing to resume defending what had been his for years. Pavlik was practically sleep walking his way into Sergio.
I’m hardly blind. Pavlik’s people my have been but not me. Pavlik was not right and may never be right, mentally or physically, again. That is not revisionist BS. Those are now well known facts.
Hatton chose a new trainer, one of the best in the business, to prepare to continue his undefeated run a 140 through Manny. The fact that Mayweather Sr and he sucked together is now well documented. But the night Manny destroyed him, he was not the just the lineal and undisputed champion, he was the bigger man that had cleaned out and ruled his divison for years…..without a loss.
Context is everything. Montiel’s victory less than one year earlier in Japanover Hasegawa was his claim to fame and the direct set up to his fight with Donaire. That has value. Literally.
Argue if you will about the diffrences between Pavlik and Hatton and I will remain steadfast. But there is no question that Donaire beating of Montiel was ’beating the man that beat the man" at that time and that place. Time and place being the operatives in my determining his place P4P.
Last point, my opinion of Martinez is based on my assessment that he is an entertining but very flawed fighter. If your insunation is that I somehow arrived at that position because of his representation, you’re wrong. I don’t give a shit about who does or does not represent him or anyone else for that matter.
I think Cotto and Pavlik are both damaged goods and Cotto is Todd de Bouf’s personal favorite. I think James Kirkland is a beast and great fun to watch and he is represented by Oscar. JMM is still a can’t miss fighter and has been a GBP fighter for years. The list goes on…and on and on.
My agenda is watching fighters and fights and assessing and critiquing them while I enjoy them working. It is how they represent themselves in the ring and to some degree how the media and the networks represents them that impacts my perception. Agencies be damned.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
a light- fisted but elite opponent.
Paulie Malignaggi’s a lot of things, but he’s certainly never been elite.
Malignaggi set up his battle with Manny.
Espino and Rubio set up Pavliks with Sergio.
In other words, Hatton was preparing to resume defending what had been his for years. Pavlik was practically sleep walking his way into Sergio.
Hatton was at least as damaged a set of goods as Kelly, if not far more so. He’d taken tonnes of punishment in the ring – and the Mayweather knockout was a heavy one in itself – and he’d punished his body plenty outside the ring, with his binge eating and reckless drinking.
It’s so easy to spin things so that Hatton seems fine and Kelly seems damaged, but come on. No one’s stupid.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That looks so wrong, let me re-post!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, ignore this and look below for easier reading!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
a light- fisted but elite opponent.
Paulie Malignaggi’s a lot of things, but he’s certainly never been elite.
Malignaggi set up his battle with Manny.
Espino and Rubio set up Pavliks with Sergio.
In other words, Hatton was preparing to resume defending what had been his for years. Pavlik was practically sleep walking his way into Sergio.
Hatton was at least as damaged a set of goods as Kelly, if not far more so. He’d taken tonnes of punishment in the ring – and the Mayweather knockout was a heavy one in itself – and he’d punished his body plenty outside the ring, with his binge eating and reckless drinking.
It’s so easy to spin things so that Hatton seems fine and Kelly seems damaged, but come on. No one’s stupid.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What is all this about? Pavlik's damage has not been of the pyshical nature. Hatton's damage has.
On the other hand, if being drained by booze is true, then that is also damage. Pavlik will recover. Hatton cannot and will never recover. The KO by Pac is a career ending KO. Happens to the best.
And spare me your “hardly’s.” I’m not putting up with that crap. I expect the same respect from YOU that I give YOU.
I'm guessing
that ‘hardly’ was in another exchange, as for the life of me I can’t see it in Oli’s above post :)
Knowing what we do now, I think Pavlik fought a hell of a fight against Martinez. Sure in between a couple of rounds his body language was just shocking, but he fought his ass off, particularly in the middle stretch. If thats him drinking too much, well…. I hope he makes it all the way back.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Totally agree.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
That ‘hardly’ genuinely has to be one of the least offensive comments. Whatever floats your boat…
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't rise to it. Faux-offense is not worth bothering with.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
On the actual point, Pakin made out that Pavlik was a spent force, and that Hatton was not. I was arguing that Hatton was the truly spent force, and not the other way round.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 16, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree, but I think this debate has run its course for now.... :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
look at Mr Mellow over in the corner there ;-)
wonder why that is?? ahahaha :)))
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Because I cannot agree that one-loss Ricky Hatton was a 'truly spent force'
but I honestly can’t be assed to get involved right now.
If anyone feels like having a report on my desk (or on here :D ) 9am Monday morning as to why Hatton was a ‘truly spent force’, having lost to the P4P #1 at the time in the division above that which he was comfortable in, and then having won a couple of good fights against decent opposition, then feel free, and I’ll respond. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
It’s not that hard. It’s a nice tagline that Ricky had only ever lost to Floyd, but he deserved a loss to Collazo in my estimation and he’d abused his body to the point, in the ring and out, that he was old for his age. Facot in the fact that he and Floyd Sr. were a match made in somewhere besides heaven, and had very public spats during that camp, and Hatton was probably far less than prepared for Pacquiao. I can’t in my right mind think that Ricky, good and tough as he was, gets steamrolled by Manny that way unless something more is afoot.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
factor in*
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Hatton was probably far less than prepared for Pacquiao.
I’d agree with that. But that does not equal Hatton being a spent force.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Who can possibly be prepared for Pacquiao
Mayweather Sr is still enraged that his efforts were blasted out in two rounds. PAC is force of nature, a fine tuned hurt machine.
The fact is that Hatton, undefeated when he fought Floyd and undefeated as a junior welterweight when he faced Manny, would never beat either one.
He was simply never on their level.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I'd agree with that too.
But that still doesn’t equal Hatton being a spent force.
Andre Berto isn’t a match for either of them either, but I don’t consider Berto a ‘spent force’.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
He fought Floyd at his wrong weight and he had an awful camp with Mayweather Sr, who I honestly doubt cares even slightly about that fight, and the way he was abusing his body was catching up with him – he’s never fought since.
No he wasn’t on their level, but he was better than he was able to show on those two nights.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Yup.
I think the Hatton that beat Tszyu would have given Mayweather nightmares.
Also, had Floyd not had the fight at his ideal weight, in his choice of ring size, with his choice of gloves, at his choice of venue, in his home country, with his choice of referee, then that might have helped too.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Nevada has a standard ring size for all fights. Floyd had no say on the ring size.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Barry Hearn says different.
I’m guessing Mayweather will be looking for a 24ft ring, while Hatton would prefer an 18ft one, and if the American gets what he wants it will make life very tough for our boy.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
18×18 is not legal in Nevada.
http://leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html#NAC467Sec442
Steve Bunce said the ring was 22 square feet, but he’s the only reliable person I can find. I’ll trust him though. But there was no way Hatton was getting “his” ring size, so I guess that counts as a disadvantage either way. Also a disadvantage: Hatton not being as good as Mayweather.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
And, not that this is authoritive at all, really, but there is much pre-fight discussion about it here:
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-151866.html
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Not even if....he did have a bad loss, two iffy fights, staph infection and a lot of alchohol
Sorry but them’s are facts.
Martinez beat him for sure. But in retrospect, Pavlik was a wasted champion.
Donaire is my Number Two and rising.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
That’s great, but the specific argument that “Donaire beat the man that beat the man” and Martinez did not still does not really make sense to me. What is the argument here? That Montiel was the legitimate champ at 118? That Donaire’s victory over Montiel gives him a claim to being the true champion of the division (his single win over Sidorenko being sufficient to establish a top three ranking at bantamweight prior to the Montiel fight)? That since Pavlik had problems Martinez shouldn’t be considered the lineal champion (if so, should Pacquiao’s junior welterweight title not be recognized)?
I get that you have Donaire at two and that you are not impressed by Martinez beating Pavlik. I also understand that the utility of lineal titles can be questionable, especially when making pound-for-pound lists. I simply do not understand the argument that Donaire “beat the champ that beat the champ” and the implication that Martinez somehow did not.
It's you that are becoming intractable.
Pavlik ….was a mess before losing by decision to Martinez.
His record just prior to meeting Martinez consisted of one career defining (devastating) loss to Hopkins and two victories over non-threatening powderpuffs, his now acknowledged battles with the bottle and his staph infection are all facts. Facts that if taken into context must color Martinez’s victory. Yes, Sergio beat the man but that man was himself a shell of his once formidibale self.
Donaire beat a Champion who beat a Champion in his own backyard just twelve months earlier. That is by any measue a yardstick used to measure a fighter’s current stature. Donaire will now embark on wiping out his division. And then moving up.
Sergio….he has called out Floyd, a longtime welter who but once fought at 154. And Pacquiao, a little man ten pounds his junior.
I think we should set this aside because you appear caught up in Sergio Amore, a temporary condition that I trust will soon pass.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Guilty of the second and the third.
But while I like Sergio, I’m not guilty of the first charge, your honour.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
BTW
IMO, Pacquiao’s junior welterweight title should not be recognized
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
WTF???
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I think that was a response to what bachwards in the post above
it didn’t just come out of nowhere…lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
And yet I still say,
WTF???
I don;t care who it was a reply to, that is one crazy statement.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I meant what I said
The ‘title’ bout with Margarito was a WBO rock, scissor, paper title fabricated for the purposes of that one fight; a reason to give Manny a shot at 8 titles.
Pacquiao’s victory is unimpeachable …. But the title is.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
oh I see here
You said junior welter (the Hatton fight) and meant junior middle (the Margarito fight). That’s where the confusion is. Yeah I agree on the 154 “title.” It was pure nonsense (though it was WBC and not WBO)
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Ahhhhhhh........
I thought the original post was a ref to the Hatton fight too.
It all becomes clear.
I agree that the 154 title was/is a farce.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
So.....we're all cool on this one :)
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
1. Ward – Yeah, fuck you I said it.
2. Mayweather – Ok so he needs to fight again but this really isn’t out of the norm behavior for Mayweather and I still think he destroys PacMan in a 1-on-1 match.
3. Pacman – Yup he just destroys people but he needs to fight someone who has at least some chance of beating him. When was the last time that he was close to even odds on for a fight? Yeah I know that you can make the same knock on most top-rank fighters, but there are some good fights out there that he is choosing not to make.
4. Donaire – Holy shit that man is amazing. If he fights Mares, I might find a way to get to that fight…
5. Sergio – Hate to put him this low because I think he is truly one of the best in the game but he just isn’t in the elite level of the guys above him.
6. JMM – Older but still one of the best. In his division I’m not sure if there is anyone who I could definitively say would beat JMM. Rios maybe. I think he takes care of Soto and guerrero quite easily. Acosta, Vazquez, the list goes on.
7. Wlad – All I do is win.
8. Khan – Man I hate him, but damn he is a really good boxer who has learned how to effectively deal with getting rocked.
9. Pong – Pong is good and deserves to be on the list.
10. Gamboa – Good speed, good power, terrible footwork. I mean straight up atrociously awful.
Thats my list feel free to go at it.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
I was thinking of you when I placed Ward.... :)
As for your comments on Pacquaio, I’m genuinely curious: who exactly whould he be fighting? He has fought and beat every guy in the top 5 at welterweight except Floyd (let’s not go there) and Berto (who is probably next).
I don’t like the Mosley fight, at all, but come on. Slurring his record up til now is just plain illogical.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Yeah he has beaten everyone in the top five, but every fighter that Pacman has faced recently has dropped off after they fought him. In my eyes all these guys were on the down slope and Pacman handed them a cart to go down a little quicker. Also Pacman’s fights against margo, clottey, and mosley are completely meaningless in terms of prestige or whatever. If Berto or Floyd comes next then I won’t rag on him but I severely doubt that either of those situations ever happens.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 15, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah he has beaten everyone in the top five, but every fighter that Pacman has faced recently has dropped off after they fought him.
Isn’t that another way of saying “they were never the same fighter after they fought Pacquaio”?
I mean, do we detract from Buster’s win over Tyson because Tyson was never the same guy afterwards?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I don’t buy this “Manny changes fighters” crap. You can decimate a fighter and they can come back. Ward did a number on Kessler, and he came back to beat Froch in a very good fight. In fact I would favor Kessler in his fight with Bute.
OLDH – Old
Ricky – Too much mileage from the weight changes
Cotto – Damaged goods but I will give him credit for this one
Clottey – This was a sham fight
Margo – Seriously? A guy coming off of a one year suspension?
Mosley – Really?
Manny had two amazing fights with JMM and he didn’t fall off the face of the earth after the first fight. I’m more inclined to go with the thought that the fighters that Manny recently fought weren’t all that good when they faced him.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 20, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
btw, you see the penalty we got today?! Comedy!!
Back to boxing, could not agree more with the above.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Then you're smoking crack
Manny beat the best fighters in the welterweight division one at a time….virtually cleaning out a weight class above him in doing so. And he did so emphatically.
His achievements are unparalleled in this era.
Ward beating Kessler is meaningless in this discussion. Unless of course you want to say that Calzaghe exposed and destroyed Mikkell.
Listen. Elite fighters fight elite fighters. They do not get to the top without fighting Tough hard battles that both make them and break them. That is why the achievements if the ATG historic fighters were considered great.
They fought each other, win or lose.
Just because they lost one or two fights does not mean they were broken, necessarily. Not was their next opponents victory over them diminished because of the one previous loss.
Oscar was one and a half years away from fighting Floyd Mayweather to a near draw when MP kicked his ass. He was older but not old. Cotto lost one fight, badly…but he was still a top welterweight when MP beat his ass. margarito would have beaten almost any other welterweight the night Manny beat him. moreover, he would have hurt them badly. Clottey couldn’t then wouldn’t get his shots off because he was facing an offensive force that was unlike any he ever fought. And Hatton had list once to the best fighter in the world.
Yes, sometimes fighters are destroyed by a loss.
Ricky Hatton and Paul Williams will not be the same.
Oscar has retired.
The others are all still competitive.Very.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
comment's all good
But please avoid the “smoking crack” stuff in the future — it’s just so…“boxing forum,” and I hate boxing forums. It’s not a big deal, just a request.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Listen. Elite fighters fight elite fighters. They do not get to the top without fighting Tough hard battles that both make them and break them. That is why the achievements if the ATG historic fighters were considered great.
They fought each other, win or lose.
I don’t think waldo’s disputing this. He just said the guys Manny fought were all either faded or not that good.
Oscar was one and a half years away from fighting Floyd Mayweather to a near draw when MP kicked his ass. He was older but not old. Cotto lost one fight, badly…but he was still a top welterweight when MP beat his ass. margarito would have beaten almost any other welterweight the night Manny beat him. moreover, he would have hurt them badly. Clottey couldn’t then wouldn’t get his shots off because he was facing an offensive force that was unlike any he ever fought. And Hatton had list once to the best fighter in the world.
Oscar was totally drained at the weight. As in, so totally drained that he could barely muster up the energy to throw punches. Cotto was a very good win, I agree. Margarito was also a good win, although I wouldn’t place quite as much stock in it as you do. Clottey was a decent win, but he isn’t an elite fighter, and I’m quite happy to say Hatton was a largely faded force by the Manny fight, as I’ve posited somewhere else on this post.
Manny’s achievements are mind-blowing if you look at them your way, but there is another valid way of looking at them too.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 20, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
ah, repeated you a bit below lol
I don’t rate the Clottey win at all. I really don’t. I remember hen Manny got so frustrated at him standing there with that guard that he did the double punch around it – that was symptomatic of his basically the whole fight
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
1. Margarito would have beaten almost any other welterweight the night Manny beat him. Um, the Margarito that made SSM look like a world beater before he won 1 minute in 36 against Floyd and draw with Sergio Mora? As Ted would say, he’s done’ is Margs…
2. Clottey couldn’t get his shots off….well I don’t have the compubox numbers, but he was very limited in his ambition. Yours is a charitable view – I and most think he was just there to survive and cash a check.
3. Oscar was a part time fighter, and drained, and there were clear signs in the Forbes fight that he could no longer ‘pull the trigger’. That proved a more relevant assessment of where he was as a fighter nearer the time he fought Pac. He’snever fought since….
and neither has Ricky, who endured a very poor camp with Mayweather Sr and had been well known for his weight issues in between fights. Yes Pac was awesome, but did it all catch up with him then?
I give Pac the most credit for the Cotto fight, as that was the one that seemed to convince the Mayweather camp fully that he was on something.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I believe it was the Hatton fight started Floyd Srs rant
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Oscar and everyone else thought it was ridiculous for Manny to beat him.
margarito was prepared to die trying to win in fighting Manny and would have given almost any welterweight a night of hell.
Clottey had just given Cotto fits and he fought that fight too parsimoniously as well. He counter punches. When you don’t see the punches coming and/ or they are coming at you non stop…..you can’t counter. manny beat him into a turtle….and no one had done that to him ever. and he has a very extensive resume.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Marquez at the right weight. Berto. I listed some others. Fight Martinez or Pirog moving up in weight.
Manny is a cherry picker of late. Or fight the winner of Cotto-Margo in a rematch.
Yeah I frankly think that his resume is absolutely awful and he had trouble with it. Sure he came back in the rematch but he hasn’t shown me that he can go the distance with a fighter that will put pressure on him. I have this feeling that Ward is going to do what Andrade did times 500. Bute may be exhausted by the 5th round, and honestly I think Ward KO’s him late.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 16, 2011 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions
when you say
‘Waldo’ and ‘Ward at number 1’ there needs no further explanation :) Cela va sans dire and all that lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I have a question that is off-topic, but not way out of line as there was some talk about conditioning coaches.
It seems that I first heard of strength and conditioning coaches regularly working with boxers about ten years ago.
At that time, there was one coach who everybody appeared to want in his camp—
And I can’t recall his name and it’s driving me crazy.
Anyway, he was one of the first to introduce “new methods” that are popular in gyms to boxers and he was everywhere—
I think his name was a little odd too, almost makes me think of MP’s wife, Jinky (sp.??)
Forgive me if I post this, or something similar on more than one thread, and don’t do the BLH dance on my head.
I just really want to find the answer.
Yeah, Mackey Shilstone. He’s been the genius behind keeping Bernard in ridiculous condition. Between him keeping Bernard in shape and Naazim drawing up the gameplans, I’m not sure Bernard can actually turn into a bad fighter until he’s about 94.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 15, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry--forget it, I just found the name
Mickey Shilstone (I think that’s how it’s spelled anyway).
because mannys not even a natural welterweight let alone junior middleweight or middleweight. 154 is much closer to Mayweather’s natural weight.
I understand, but tha weight isue has not been an issue thus far with Manny. If Martinez comes down and Manny goes up, but not too far up, I
believe the fight can be made.
Well it won’t be made because Sergio is a severe threat to Pacman without being a really big draw to a general audience. Sergio is an all-risk no-reward kind of fight for Pacman and Arum isn’t that dumb. Margo is/was the same size as Sergio so this ‘he is too big for him’ argument is a big pile of shit from the Arum spin machine. Sergio has the speed, the counter-punching, and the power to really really bother Pacman. I think he KO’s Manny at almost any weight from 150 up.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 16, 2011 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Margarito is never the size as Sergio, Sergio would have to cut an arm off or something to make 150. Sammlung out it well below, and I would go further than impossible and just call the idea completely unrealistic. I mean I would love to see Pac fight a warm body at 147, someone like Berto, but Martinez is better off chasing Cotto (who is just not going to fight him anyway) or trying to go up weight for a fight with one of the Spuer Six guys, if nothing else is forthcoming, which looks like being the case.
Although I heard an interview from Paul Williams saying that he wants a rubber match, and if he can get a comeback win or two under his belt that would be an attractive one for Martinez.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
actually
going up in weight is not going to happen for him, so maybe hoping on a Paul Williams comeback is his best option…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Let’s be fair. As much as we all love Sergio he is a no-name to the general boxing public. I’m not sure he could draw that many people if he was on a PPV.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 17, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I would pick a 147 pound Manny Pacquiao to destroy Sergio Martinez at 154
Tomorrow, the next day and every one after that.
Martinez has won a couple of fights.
Credit where credit is due.
But he has never faced a great boxer the likes of Manny or Floyd.
He wouldn’t have a clue what was hittng him from a boxer of Manny’s or Floyd’s caliber.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Dude.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Sweet
Idiots!!!
YOUR tattoo says dude. YOUR tattoo says sweet……
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
lol
Sorry, but I cannot any longer take this guy seriously.
I would pick a 147 pound Manny Pacquiao to destroy Sergio Martinez at 154
That’s too much. Really too much.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
That is Avery serious statement
Manny would tattoo Martinez all night long.
Try to remember this is a guy who fought life and death with Paul “if I swing enough I will hit you” and Kemit Cinton.
In Manny and Floyd you are talking about two if the finest boxers to have ever entered the ring. Both men in their primes. Both capable of embarrassing and hurting much greater fighters than Martinez is or will ever be.
I’m talking boxing. Not fanforade. I don’t like Floyd but he beats Sergio every time, and makes it easier than you could imagine. Ask JMM and SSM.
Manny, quite frankly, would give Sergioa clinic. And hurt him in doing so.
You are caught up in Sergio Amore, a temporary disease that infects boxing fans periodically by borrowing into willing hosts. Recent outbreaks were referred to Jermainitus and Pavlik Syndrome. It’s not fatal but symptoms include temporary loss of memory and blurred visions.
I suggest staying home and keep watching. It will pass. Pc.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Ask JMM and SSM.
You have been saying why Martinez has been credit for fighting a guy one weight class below him. Don’t then give Floyd credit for fighting a guy, as great as he is, TWO weight classes below.
by Sweet science on Mar 18, 2011 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Try to remember this is a guy who fought life and death with Paul "if I swing enough I will hit you" and Kemit Cinton.
What the hell Martinez-Cintron fight did YOU watch? Martinez knocked him out and got the shaft on a bad call, then clearly won and got robbed.
I don’t like Floyd but he beats Sergio every time, and makes it easier than you could imagine. Ask JMM and SSM.
See: What Sweet science said. Come on. You are wildly inconsistent in this. Just admit you have some incredible bias against Sergio Martinez.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Martinez clearly won the fight
But I didn’t think he looked great in doing it. His workrate was low, and there were times he really seemed troubled by Kermit’s subtle movement.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
The second half of the fight, after the blown knockout call, was more competitive. The first half wasn’t pretty but Sergio dominated.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That is the way I saw it.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Kermit’s subtle movement.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Sorry, but that strikes me as deliciously funny…..
I’m not sure those three words have ever been mentioned in the same breath before…. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
this thread has some Very funny comments
most of them unintentional…..lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Mosely beat Margarito by KO before he lost every round but one against Floyd
I’ll retract JMM for argument sake…..but Floyd beat the welterweight champion of the world in humiliating fashion.
I submit he would embarrass Martinez.
And that Manny might even retire him.
At the very least, after Manny tattoos him, he wont be as pretty as his is now….but he will be richer.
Again, I’m picking TWO career proven world class boxers over Martinez.
No hate. Just firm conviction.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You are getting selective if you ignore my key statement
this is a guy who fought life and death with Paul “if I swing enough I will hit you” Williams
The fact is that in 12 rounds against Williams Sergio hit the canvas once, dropped to his knees in exhaustion once, slipped from exhaustion once again and finished a brutal fight on feet….against a guy with virtually no defense (and thus subject to constant right hands) who throw more wasted punches than virtually any top fighter in the world.
That’s against a Paul Williams attack. Manny and Floyd are accurate tattoo artists who hit you with speed and skill, unlike LTP who does it on sure will.
Martinez got hit by rights throughout that first fight, innaccurately thrown but landing nevertheless. Floyd would throw a third as many and, I am convinced, would begin to hit Sergio at will.
Manny would be in and out, up and down all night long putting on a show with both hands against a fighter who, whether he be in with Pavlik, Williams or Cintron, has proven capable of being hit.
Martinez has defensive flaws that would have Roger Mayweather and Freddie Roach sleeping well at night….should either of their charges be matched to fight.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Frankly, I wouldn't be shocked
Heads up, at 160 (with Manny allowed to come in at 145), I might still pick Manny. Hard to say. Either one would be the best opponent they’ve faced in at least a while, and both guys have had problems against fighters with somewhat similar styles in the past.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Ditto
It’s not prejudice against Sergio to acknowledge that he has never seen the likes of Manny or Floyd in the ring in his life. And the thing about them is that you don’t get to see their punches before they hit you.
Martinez is a spectacular performer and an excellent fighter….but he will get his ass handed to him by the two best boxers in the world.
Put it this way. Cintron, Pavlik, Williams, and Dz are not Manny or Floyd.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Clottey, Hatton, De La Hoya, and Margo aren’t exactly a cavalcade of speed or counter-punching. Martinez tears up Pacman if they let Martinez be at any weight that is around 160. Martinez will walk through Pacman’s power at that weight and he is quick enough to get to his chin.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 18, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Tears up Pacman.... is actually funny
You drinkin’ tonight Waldo?
You know, too much Argentine beer will cloud your judgement.
When was the last time anyone got to Manny’s chin with any regularity? Four years ago. Maybe. Before his defense became narly as good as his offense.
And then, ask yourself, at what price?
Actually, ask Oscar. Or Cotto.
Martinez get’s hit solid by guys whose connect percentage is close to Roy Holliday’s batting average. Do the math. Anything Paul Williams and Pavlik landed on Martinez (which was plenty), double it. That is how often he would get hit by Manny.
Floyd would be more parsimonious.
The volume far lower but the result would be the same.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
20 lb weight advantage will make even Manny’s power a moot point. Let’s not be clouded by the past couple fights. Cotto got to Manny before he felt the power. Almost all of Manny’s defense is predicated on the fact that he can back you up with a combo and that he is fast. Manny can hit Sergio all he wants, if Sergio has 20 lbs on him it doesn’t matter. If Manny isn’t giving up 20 lbs, he is going to be so blown up that his speed isn’t going to be that great.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 19, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I just have to say this.
These two guys are never, ever going to fight each other.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 19, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course they aren’t going to fight each other. The only non-Top Rank fighter that Pacman could ever face would be Floyd if that fight ever happens….
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 19, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
It matters when you are being hit by an accurate assassin like Manny
Ask Margarito….the man that knocked out Sergio….how it felt to get whacked by a smaller man.
I believe the difference was seventeen pounds.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Dude seriously that fight was 11 years ago….
If you are basing your conclusions on a fight 11 years ago then you got some issues. But if we are going to go that far back I would say that Martinez has a good deal of the same characteristics as Medgoen Singsurat….
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 19, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The fight was less than one year ago when Manny busted up Margo
And Margo was at least as big as Martinez the night he fought Manny.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Nice avoidance of waldo's actual point there.
Let’s run through this:
you bring up Margo/Sergio as proof of a point.
Waldo says it was 11 years ago, and not really relevant any more.
you start talking about Pacquaio/Margarito like you never mentioned Margo/Sergio.
Avoidance. Nice. Well. Done.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
well, I don't think he actually avoided it
A. Waldo bases his argument on 20lbs weight difference
B. pakinpower replies that there was 17lbs difference in between Margarito and Pacquiao, and that didn’t stop him from busting him up.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Balls.
the man that knocked out Sergio…
Dude seriously that fight was 11 years ago….
The fight was less than one year ago when Manny busted up Margo
And Margo was at least as big as Martinez the night he fought Manny.
B refers to A, and C completely ignores B.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
not balls.....lol
the size argument was the key plank of Wlado’s argument above that.
He’s not using Margarito as a person who knocked out Sergio, was beaten by Manny and therefore Sergio has no chance with Manny – its mainly just in relation to size.
Waldo takes it that way slightly, and his reply doesn’t make Anbsolutely clear that is not his train of thought – but I’m pretty sure its not
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
You're seeing completely different posts to me.
I mean, you must be.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
no way dude
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
its all moot anyway
its a pretty incredible assertion to witness being argued….lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
BB is spot on
Margarito that lost to Manny was seventeen pounds heavier than Manny.
And Manny beat his ass.
Skills win fights. Not necessarily size.
In Manny’s case, he is and has been the most devastating fighter in any size. Hence my contention that his skills are far superior to anything Martinez gas ever faced….and my conviction that he would tattoo him in ways that would shock the Sergio for President constituency.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
thats the point I thought you were making
and I’m not arguing that Manny is not a more skilled fighter – my boxing expertise is not such to hang on that level, although I would say that for me Floyd is the better Boxer and maybe Manny the better Fighter.
The thing is that obviously Martinez is inifinitley better than Margarito, and would be that much bigger at 154….
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
OK- all that being the case, why would you bring up Margarito beating Sergio?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Does this mean we’re then comparing Sergio’s skills of 2000 to Manny’s skills of 2010? Because yeah, Manny Pacquiao of 2010 absolutely murders Sergio Martinez of 2000. But Sergio Martinez of 2011 is a totally, totally different animal to the fighter he was 11 years ago, which is why I think your argument is totally invalid.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 20, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup.
That’s what I was getting at, and what I presume waldo was getting at too.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I know.
I can’t believe we’re still going here on Martinez, but I genuinely can’t comprehend pakin’s thought process.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 20, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
we'll get to a conclusion soon enough
I imagine…lol the funny thing is that Brick apparently thinks so seriously too, which is a bit confusing
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
obviously
Margarito is kind of ‘done’, Martinez is kind of not, and the difference in weight and skills between the two will be much greater.
Its rather amazing that we’re debating the assertion that Manny could give weight and a beating to Martinez – Brick also said in another post that he might pick Manny all the way up to 160. I don’t know if he’s serious or just has some very good drugs, but I can’t get my head around it really. Its just comedy…..lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I'm banking against the drugs.
But it is certainly comedy. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Cheering for Martinez is charming
But no one here has said what punch, what combination of offense and defense Martinez has in his arsenal that would be effective against either Floyd or Manny, two fighters with more arrows in their quills and more experience in firing them than Martinez’s opponents in the aggregate.
Let me know after you break down the tapes exactly what threats or threats technically or fundamentally Martinez poses to either of the two best boxers live.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Uhh the fact that Sergio would be the fastest fighter Manny has faced north of 140 and that he has the counter-punching skills/speed of someone like a Marquez….
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 19, 2011 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
He'll be counting punches
Not countering them
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Plus prime Marquez never beat Manny
And Martinez is not nearly the great boxer tha JMM has been over his lifetime.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
lots of people think JMM beat Manny twice.
I do.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
True
But he didn’t.
Lots of people think Sergio Martinez lost to Paul Willaims. I don’t
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
The fight’s not impossible to make, just improbable. If you’ll recall from his fight with Margarito they had the 150 pd catchweight and Manny decided to not even get close to it because he felt sluggish (I just checked he weighed in at 144.5). I doubt he’d sign up for anything above 152 with just about any fighter let alone a beast like Sergio.
Also, I think it’d be a great fight for Floyd from a legacy standpoint. If he fought and beat Martinez he’d seriously be in the mix of the all time greats (not like top 10 but pretty high). I feel like Pacquiao’s legacy is pretty secure at this point. Floyd…not so much.
I remember the general view at the time being that what power he did have doesn’t carry very well up from 147, after the fight with Oscar, so I think its only ever going to be 147 for Floyd if he ever gets back in the ring…
I think if he did fight at 154, Martinez would be too strong for him there…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
My Top 10
1. Pacquiao
2. Mayweather
3. Martinez
4. Donaire
5. Ward
6. Marquez
7. Khan
8. JM Lopez
9. ‘Nard Hopkins
10. W Klitschko
I’ll comment on various inclusions…
While Mayweather hasn’t fought in a while, I take a similar view to The Ring, which is that I still consider him active until a year has passed since the Mosley fight, or when he’s officially behind bars. American legal proceedings are about as predictable as the man himself and I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if it all blows over by late Spring, perhaps hastened by some eye-watering out of court settlements by the self-proclaimed ‘Money’. Manny’s ahead based on his record and activity, and for the record I think PBF wins by UD if this one ever happens.
I left out Bute because in my eyes he was KO’d by Andrade in their first fight, and while he won the sequel, the rest of his record isn’t quite strong enough to redeem him. If he beats the Super 6 winner (Ward) or another top 168 pounder then he’ll be right in there, obviously, but not before.
I’ve been a big Amir Khan fan since the beginning and I wear this bias without shame, but against Maidana he displayed world class heart and decent whiskers (well, better than we thought at the very least) to add to his speed and skills. I expect him to beat Bradley, who is worse in every department except headbutting, and stay in this list for some years to come. 7 may be high, but f—k it.
Lopez is one I have trouble with, as it stands I think he beats Gamboa, although this is based on nothing rational, just a gut feeling. Like when my poached eggs are ready. Can’t wait for this one.
..Which leaves me with ‘Nard. Where do I even begin with B-Hop? He’s an absolute marvel. I won’t count him out of another fight until he’s on crutches, and even then he’ll give them hell. A living legend.
Meant to include another space under Bute paragraph
Damn my OCD. Oh well – there goes my first post.
epic first post ;-)
even though I’m not sure how Lopez got on there ahead of Hopkins and Wlad. I’m a huge fan of Khan, and even if I might not have him that high, he would be in my 10.
I like how you already crowned Ward as the Super Six winner too, btw ;-) They still got some boxing to play out in that, you know….
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
welcome to the site!
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
But I note that most non-Brits here don’t have Khan while most Brits do have him. Hmmm just saying. Fcat is, he is now training in Cali and it would not surprise me to see him move to Cali or Vegas for an extended stay.
I’m not far off on the Khan train, but I’m admittedly as close to a Khan fanboy as one can be without wanting to use the term “fanboy.”
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep, as a Brit, I’d love to see Carl Froch in there too. Hey, why not throw in Jamie McDonnell and Matt Macklin too, just for the hell of it. :/
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 17, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
come on
That’s not what he’s saying at all. Counter with “I rank Khan because…” or don’t counter at all.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmm yeah. Just really gets my goat when someone suggests that I – or whoever – am picking Khan because he’s British.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 18, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
What it means is the Americans might not know ebough about Khan and Brits might
not know enough about Yanks fighters. Thus, my comment about Khan moving to the States. But you always seem to take tings personally. Frankly, I don’t think you know all that much about boxing because you don’t seem to have mach of a historical perspective, nor do you ever seem to comment about boxing techniques. No disrespect, but the 130 armature fights I had do help me when it comes to evaluating. But that’s just me. But what it allows me to do is look at how a fighter throws an uppercut and then comment accordingly. Point: have you ever been in the ring? If yes, then my apologies. Don’t get me wrong, you don’t have to be an ex-boxer to know boxing, but if you are, it does help give you an added dimension when posting. Not necessarily a better one, but an added one. And one that perhapps prevents one from practing that dreaded diseas to wit: engageitis.
Fcat is, he is now training in Cali and it would not surprise me to see him move to Cali or Vegas for an extended stay
Sorry, Ted – but who do you actually think you are? You don’t know me – who are you to say what I do and don’t know?
And as you’re so desperate to know, no, I haven’t been in the ring past sparring, but there are plenty of great people on here who haven’t either. But hey, if you want me to list for you my great uncle, uncle, and cousins who’ve fought professionally, not to mention my grandfather who fought in the British Army amateur final at welterweight, then sure. They’re all up on BoxRec – other than my grandfather, who never turned professional – so just ask.
The last thing I want is for a load of arguments to spring up all over again, but don’t make assumptions when you know absolutely nothing about me. Sorry if I don’t match up to all your cutting edge analysis – because you really are cutting edge – but yeah, just stop, and let’s not have a problem.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 18, 2011 5:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
everybody relax
Or I’ll ban everyone on the site. I don’t mind back-and-forth arguing and mostly it’s been cool in this thread, but we’ve gotten perilously close to annoying the shit out of me. Frankly I can’t prevent everyone annoying each other, but I’m The Man like Hozumi Hasegawa. I sanctioned it myself. I’m like Don Jose Sulaiaman.
OK, I’m nothing like him. I’m not rich, or Mexican, or able to get money from fighters for whatever belt I invented this week.
But my point stands. It either ends now or I’m ban hammerin’.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And this thread’s been too good for me to want to shut it down, so just everyone do me the favor here. Please. We’ve even developed into prospect talk now. Keep it rollin’.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool with me. But if you’re Don Jose, please can I have a diamond belt?
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 18, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, maybe after you’ve paid your fees and fought for a Youth, International, Carribean, Latino, Continental, Silver or a regular. What do you think we just give those away?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankly, I don’t think you know all that much about boxing because you don’t seem to have mach of a historical perspective, nor do you ever seem to comment about boxing techniques.
OH HOW FUNNY!
Please refer to this link:
http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/12/28/1900556/the-xmas-new-year-blh-forum-awards-2010#55453944
And this quote in particular:
OliGold is a very tough guy to fight with. He knowes his shite.
Inconsistent, much?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I have a really good memory.
Sometimes it’s a blessing, sometimes it’s a curse.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Whta I think is when two people have made their peace as in OilGold and myself, you need to
stop getting in between and leave things alone. “I gotcha” games irritate the hell out of me and are pretty easy to do, but what do they achieve except to try to embarrass someone. More often than not, old posts are taken out of context. I won’t comment on my OilGold because it’s over and done with. Move on like Oil and I did. It’s an easier path.
More often than not, old posts are taken out of context.
So when you said that Oli ‘knew his shite’, you didn’t actually mean that?
Only joshing with you… :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Well..
of course you never know what’s gonna happen in the rest of the super 6… Froch or Johnson (not so much Abraham nowadays) are capable of giving anyone a rough night, but I just don’t see Ward not winning it. Btw my last three fighters are fairly interchangeable, my thoughts regarding the positions of the boxers above are more concrete.
@Boss Man: Brinkley, Andrade, Bika & Miranda vs. Malignaggi, Kotelnik, Maidana & Barrera (albeit the twitching, inflated corpse of Barrera) is no contest for me, a Khan victory. I just don’t think Bute’s quite as tested as Khan despite their 7 year age difference.
Berrio and Zuniga too
but point taken. Bute is odd in a way. Very deep resume, but pretty barren at the top. And I always have to preface my ranking of him (not as aggressive as some others here) by saying I thought he beat Andrade fair and square the first time. He was ALMOST knocked out, and Marlon B. Wrong handled the situation about as poorly as one could, but even if the ref had handled it correctly, Bute was still on his feet within eight seconds and the fight was over. But that horse has been beaten to death and then some.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
If it's a done deal that he fights Kessler next, that'll certainly do for me :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
He could well do.
I think it’ll be a good matchup for both guys, and the winner should certainly get first dibs on the Super Six winner. Strong matchups can only be a good thing.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Serious question, Golota Guy.
Do you think Tomasz Adamek is one of the 20 best fighters in the sport?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Well if RING magazine says he is…There is no way Adamek is in the top 20. Sure he hasn’t lost in the last 4 years but who has he fought? I like Adamek and I think he’s got a bright future but I could probably name 30 fighters better than him. Top 10 in the Heavyweight division? Definitely. Top 20 pound for pound? Not even close.
by glatin1982 on Mar 17, 2011 9:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I can see it. It depends on how you see P4P. Adamek fighting heavy is fighting well over his best. He could still make cruiser very nicely and would probably be #1 at the weight right now. How would he stand then? That he fights at heavy for bigger fights (in theory, his actual fights have a habit of sucking) could be seen as no reason to penalize him. The only guy he ever lost to was Dawson at 175.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I would still rank him out of the top 20. His skills are not that great if you study his fights. His footwork is terrible (remember the last rounds of his fights with Arreola and Grant?), his punching isn’t as sharp as it could be and his ring generalship just isn’t enough for me to sit up and pay attention. (all this could be fixed by a new trainer but that’s for another discussion)
That he fights at heavy for bigger fights (in theory, his actual fights have a habit of sucking) could be seen as no reason to penalize him.
In my opinion, if you go up in weight you should be viewed as though you are a member of that weight. Granted there are catchweight fights (ugh) and the sort but Adamek looks to have no intentions to go back to Cruiserweight so he is a Heavyweight. (That sounded much more eloquent in my grey matter)
+1
I especially like this:
In my opinion, if you go up in weight you should be viewed as though you are a member of that weight.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I agree, too, but P4P is extremely subjective. A lot of folks don’t rank the way I do (including other staffers and posters here). I think he might sneak into my top 30 still.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Is this a serious question?
You asked “who has he fought?” Try O’Neil Bell, Steve Cunningham, Chris Arreola, to name a few… He not only fought, but beat all three of these men. A two-division world champion!
He fought the sun-bleached bones of O'Neil Bell.
And the “world champion” bit doesn’t generally wash here. This isn’t Youtube, where we’re all 15 and know fuck all.
However, I do also like Adamek, I rate him highly, think he’s very good, and wish him well. But top 20 in the whole sport? Nononononononono (ad infinitum)….
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Adamek was legit champ at cruiser at least.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I've never said he isn't a very good fighter.
In fact, I’m fairly sure I just said exactly the opposite. :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I was responding to:
the "world champion" bit doesn’t generally wash here.
In this case, (half of it) does. :)
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
A two-division world champion!
In that case, HOORAY!!!!!!!
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Like I said, half is the real deal.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I already said HOORAY!!!!!
What more do you want from me?!?!! (*sobs)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
for Golota guy, top 20
hell, top 10 ;-) Its like your Tua manlove to the power of, well something big anyway….lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Don't mock my Tua man-love.
It is deep and serious. :P
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
it does appear profoundly so....lol
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
He's probably at the back end of my top 20
But his recent level of opposition leaves something to be desired. And when I look at P4P, I do account for what I think someone’s natural weight should be, so guys fighting over their best weights get a bit of extra credit.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
But that oppostion is being picked to prepare him for Klit. McBride is a big and tall guy and a good way
to prepare for fighting another big and tall guy.
“Big” and “tall” is absolutely all the Klitschkos have in common with Grant and McBride.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha — true enough. But I don’t think it realistically prepares him for them in a meaningful sense. The gulf in class is just too big. It would be like preparing for Floyd Mayweather by fighting Anthony Small.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY!!
Don’t steal my Anthony Small/Floyd Mayweather comparisons!! They’re MINE!!! :P
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Anyone fancy a prospects P4P top 10?
As in, non world title holders? This can include those late to the pro-ranks e.g. Rigondeaux
'Ima beat him so bad he'll need a shoehorn to put his hat on'
favorite prospects
1. Frankie Gavin (I said it!)
2. Jose Benavidez Jr.
3. James DeGale
4. Saul Alvarez
5. George Groves
6. Erislandy Lara
7. Odlanier Solis
8. Guillermo Rigondeaux
9. Shawn Porter
10. Fernando Guerrero
Nathan Cleverly would be #5 but I consider him past prospect status and a serious contender now.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m probably forgetting someone. Hook me up, anybody.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you have to consider Alvarez a prospect still
Considering his age
by Sweet science on Mar 18, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Alvarez as a fighter, but the WBC did everything they could to give him their title.
He is not a legitimate “champion” in any sense.
If these alphabet bozos continue to act in this manner, and they show no sign of stopping, they will continue to slide further and further into obscurity.
To answer your question, which I realize was not posed to me, I would consider Alvarez a contender and neither a prospect or a champion. He has passed by prospect status and champions are made in the ring, not in Jose Suliaman’s boardroom.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
He’s a world champion because Jose Sulaiman says he is. By any logical standard he’s not really a world champion. I refuse to recognize any of those belts.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I already agreed that he’s not. He’s as much a prospect as he is a world champion though.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 19, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He's 19
And he still has a tonne of development ahead of him. And who he fought to win that world title wasn’t excatly SSR
by Sweet science on Mar 19, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Look. If you call Alvarez a propsect, you have to included Kirkland, Lemuieux, and
a whole bunch of others. Would you call Mattthew Hatton a prospect? Baldomir? N’dou?, Jose Cotto? How about Miguel Vazquez—the current IBF Champion at lightweight? Saul has beaten each of these guys.
Therefore, how can you call him a propsect? A prospect aspires to be a champion ot a title contender. Even assuming the title he won, is bogus, he is at a minimum a top title contender whose record is 36-0-1. Age has nothing to do with it!!!!!
How about ChAvez, Jr? Duddy? Come on, SS, cut me some slack here. Saul Alvarez is no propsect.
Your move.
Benitez was 17 when he won the championship.
His speed, combined with punching power and surprising ring maturity for a 15 year-old, were enough to make him a world-ranked boxer by both the WBA and WBC, then boxing’s only world-title recognizing organizations.
On March 6, 1976, at age 17, with his High School classmates in attendance, he faced WBA Light Welterweight champion Antonio Cervantes. Known as Kid Pambele, the champion was 30 years old, had a record of 74-9-3 with 35 KO’s, and had made 10 title defenses. The result was a fifteen-round split decision in Benitez’s favor.
I now rest my case
Baldomir - N'Dou
Well past their best day’s, which wasn’t great in themselves. And yes I know Baldomir was a ring magazine WW champ, but he just wasn’t that good.
Matthew Hatton, Very limited. Great profesional, but limited
Miguel Vasquez – Current champion at LW, and Alvarez is now a world champion at LMW. And Cotto was no WW, or even LightWW
I see your reasons, and they are valid as well. But again, IMO, his age still makes him a prospect in my eyes, and his opposition has been too small for him. Let him fight a true contender at LMW and then im with you :)
by Sweet science on Mar 19, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Take Alvarez out. If he stays, then David Lemuiex must be included.
Jose Benavides has charisma and star quality written all over him. Benavidez (10-0 with 9 KO’s), now fights out of Las Angeles and is just 18 years old. He has duked in Texas, Nevada (several times), Illinois, and Mexico, getting great exposure. He is trained by Freddie Roach. Jose, also somewhat of a stylist, may just be the next big Mexican American fighter in a long line of such great boxer. Oh yes, Jose, a decorated amateur, started boxing at the age of six and has a boxing in his blood
Ran Nakash (25-0 with 18 KO’s). Ran, an Israeli-born cruiserweight, has become the latest Blue Horizon regular and his style will do nothing to taint that legendary arena’s great reputation. Nakash is teak tough and has a sound grasp of fundamental.
Raul Hirales Jr. (12-0-1) is another I like.
Edward “La Bamba” Rodriguez needs to be in there.
Also Brad Solomon.
Yeah, didn’t Alvarez just win the WBC light middlewe…
Can’t do it. Can’t finish that statement or my brain might explode.
by glatin1982 on Mar 18, 2011 12:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You know more about Nakash than I do. I’ll take your word for it.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought someone said on here recently that Benavidez was no longer trained by Roach?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I Love Groves
Great personality and a good style that will make for attractive fights.
But I wouldn’t have him as high as 5. Leaves himself way too open and Anderson almost took full advantage.
by Sweet science on Mar 18, 2011 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd sooner put Fury
above Groves
Having said that I havn’t seen a lot of names on that list and your in a much better position to rank them than me
by Sweet science on Mar 18, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Rigondeaux and Alvarez have "titles"
So I’m not sure they’re really prospects either. If you include that type of guy, I’d probably put Gennady Golovkin in my top 5. I’ve gotten flack for this, but my definition is that you cease to be a prospect once you’ve fought a title fight or title eliminator.
I think I agree with your top 3. I’d have to think harder after that.
Frankie Gomez probably belongs somewhere in the top 10. Probably also Rakhim Chakhkiev.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
You're too funny on Gavin :)
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Brick’s with me on Gavin. I take that as a good sign because he’s better with prospects than I am.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
That and not doing the list when I’m three sheets to the wind. But yeah, prospect watching has been one of the things where the BLH community has REALLY helped me over the years. When you get a bunch of boxing fans together, they’ve all seen some particular guy more than you have, can point to relevant YouTube clips and the like, and it becomes a lot easier to keep track of who’s who and what they’ve got. Thanks to your comment about Ran Nakash, for instance, I’m more interested in him than I was before. Brick has me wanting to see more Wale Omotoso every time he mentions him, for another example.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Knowing about prospects is an indicator of a fan's boxing knowledge. Most posters on most sites don't
reflect that quality. That’s a prop for BLH.
It’s like the movie “The Downill Racer.” You always need to keep an eye on the the next guy coming down the hill.
I like this.....
You always need to keep an eye on the the next guy coming down the hill.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Prospect to forget
Lateef Kayode (16-0 with 14 KOs) who is trained by Freddie Roach. Arm punching his way to 14 consecutive knockouts against poor opposition, I have been less than impressed by this well built Nigerian-born cruiserweight.
indeed
Nothing about him has impressed me other than he’s trained by Roach.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Finally, Kazuto Ioka is the best fighter in the world with a 7-0 record.
And Matt Korobov warrants condieration as well. I replace 9. Shawn Porter
10. Fernando Guerrero with the ones I mentioned.
Ooh good call on Ioka. Terrific young fighter.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Jamie Kavanagh, light welterweight, 5-0-0-2, Freddie
Edwin Rodriguez, 17-0-0-13, super mid. needs to shorten punches, wins.
?Luis Franco, WBO intercontinental Champion, age 29! 1 defense, very exciting to watch. Probably more of a contender as he holds a Lesser Trinket, but only 9 pro fights.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
HM Isaac Chilemba 16-1-0-8 holds several Lesser Trinkets, age 23. Only saw him once on FNF, liked him, wins. His record is all African, don’t know who his opponents are, but their paper records are impressive. Am I the only one who thinks he looks like a cross between Jack Johnson and Meryl Streep?—very unusual face.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
about prospects
First: I did that list hammered, and Ted’s right, if I’m going to put Alvarez I would have to put Lemieux. And really I don’t see either of them as true prospects anymore. They’re young, but fighting at an elevated level and starting to take on legitimate opponents. They’re no longer in the minors – they’ve broken into the big leagues. Now it’s sink or swim time. I really don’t include Lara/Solis/Rigondeaux, either. The Cubans are polished when they come into pro boxing and basically are what they are. When’s the last time a Cuban really made a huge adjustment from who he was as an amateur? And I don’t mean just tweaking here and there. It’s rare, and I think they’re really only prospects in a true sense for about 5-8 pro fights. After that they should be stepping up into at least fringe contender status.
Second: Let me revise with a clear(er) head. I was struggling to think of guys for obvious reasons, but somehow decided I NEEDED to do the list right then. That’s what drinking + internet does for you. Or me at least.
1. Jose Benavidez Jr.
Benavidez is the bluest of the blue chippers. This is kind of a gut call, because he’s facing really weak opposition still, but everything about the way he fights impresses me even when I skew for that level of opposition. He’s got it all.
2. Frankie Gavin
I still know I’m in the minority here, but Gavin is excellent. He’s sort of like Tyson Fury in that he seems to improve noticeably in every fight, but unlike Fury I think he’s actually a natural instead of a guy still sort of learning to box as he goes along.
3. James DeGale
A monster load of talent and an ego big enough to screw it up somewhere along the way. Still he’s a great prospect.
4. Frankie Gomez
The other Cali blue chipper I couldn’t think of last night.
5. Ismayl Sillakh
Showed a lot in the Despaigne win, I thought.
6. George Groves
Tough, will have a long career, might lose his next fight if it’s DeGale.
7. Sadam Ali
Massively cocky but a lot of ability, and he still needs to harness some of it.
8. Shawn Porter
I like Porter more than most. I think he’ll prove out in the long run, especially if he’s actually going to be able to comfortably get to 140. That’s wild.
9. Edwin Rodriguez
Sort of like Groves in that he makes some tactical mistakes but I think he’ll have a good, long career anyway.
10. Fernando Guerrero
A personal favorite.
There — a list I feel much better about. I’ll leave my bourbon list up anyway.
On prospects in general: I rank prospects by how good of a career I think they’re going to have, not on how long I think they’ll stay undefeated. I look for the same things most people do, but I have Groves, for instance, higher than some might based on the fact that I think he’s going to have a long and fruitful career. More skilled boxers than he is (not that he’s some slug) will fall by the wayside before he’s done being a relevant pro, I expect.
On the Cubans: The “Irish Cubans” (Luis Garcia, Mike Perez and Alexei Collado (formerly Alexei Acosta)) do a lot more for me than their “American” counterparts. Perez could have a better career than Solis simply because he doesn’t seem consumed by the idea of ruining said career at Old Country Buffet. But I think that a lot of them will still have good, long careers. To be honest, I think the two who least excite me overall (Solis and Rigondeaux) are also arguably the two most talented (including Yuri Gamboa), but I just don’t see either of them having long-term impact.
Other Guys: Matt Korobov’s stalled development worries me. Brad Solomon is just another in a long line of Lil Roys to me right now. He’s got talent but I just see him eventually getting blown up by legitimate opponents. Probably not D-Hop tonight because D-Hop can’t bust a grape, but I expect him to struggle a bit. If he’s real impressive bump him to #8 though. Marcus “Too Much” Johnson is another personal favorite but he REALLY needs to fight more. Two times a year is not enough for a prospect.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Prospect #11
Paweł Wolak is another prospect. The 29-1, 19 KO light middleweight recently defeated Yuri Foreman.
by jdoro63 on Mar 18, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He’s not a prospect. He’s a 29-year-old fringe contender.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
rec'd
I actually laughed out loud at that, and then some at Scott’s reply which implied that he took your comment seriously, and then I rofl’d when I realized you actually Meant it seriously :)
Quality stuff ;-)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
By prospect I meant: still a decently young fighter who has a chance to earn a world title fight. Scott was correct when he said “I think they’re really only prospects in a true sense for about 5-8 pro fights,” but all of the ten guys featured on his list didn’t only have 5-8 professional fights. So I thought maybe one can play around with the number of fights a little bit, although Wolak has had 30. I’ll give you a real prospect: Demetrius Andrade.
I meant 5-8 for the Cubans who come into the pro ranks with a lot of polish already; they’re finished products more or less within their first 10 or so pro fights at the most. That’s why I like what Beibut Shumenov has done. All of the Cubans could have done pretty much exactly the same.
I do like Wolak. Fun pressure fighter. But he’s a contender as is, and likely a finished product. Andrade’s a good shout, I’m anxious to see where he goes from this point on. It always felt like he wasn’t maxing his potential before.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
hey no worries
I didn’t mean it in a bad way, I just thought it was funny. But then I found ‘Dude, Where’s My car’ funny. Some people you just can’t help :-)
Agree on Andrade ;) Am pretty high on Fury, but then I’m a bit Brit-centric as thats more of what I see, I can’t remember the last time I caught a FNF, for example :(
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Without too much thought, top 10 prospects in terms of how good I think they'll be
1. Frankie Gavin
2. Jose Benavidez Jr.
3. James DeGale
4. Erislandy Lara
5. Rakhim Chakhkiev
6. Wale Omotoso
7. Frankie Gomez
8. Luis Garcia (but is the heart there?)
9. Ismayl Sillakh
10. Rico Ramos
If he went pro tomorrow, Vasyl Lomachenko would be #1 with a bullet.
Others worth noting not mentioned yet: Robert Helenius, Teerachai Kratingdaenggym (who’s been my personal dark horse prospect for a while now), Bastie Samir, Dominic Wade (I like him better than the SMW prospects Shobox has been pushing lately), Tyson Fury, Sharif Bogere, Demetrious Andrade
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Ah, shit, I’d have Chakhkiev on mine too. Probably #6. I forgot about him. Helenius doesn’t excite me, but I admit heavyweights rarely do.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 18, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
forgot Rico Ramos, like him.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
let me say this
And I’m saying it with a smile on my face, because 85% of this has been a wonderful discussion…
This is why I don’t do P4P rankings.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
sorry to do this, but I'm closing the thread
I’d explain, but I don’t really want to, and if you ask me to explain in another thread, I won’t, so don’t bother. If someone wants to start a new FanPost on the Martinez discussion or prospect talk or whatever, feel free.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
