Sergio Martinez Too Good for Sergiy Dzinziruk and More
by Scott Christ on Mar 13, 2011 4:51 PM EDT
in Boxing Results and Post-Fight Analysis
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Sergio Martinez was too much for Sergiy Dzizniruk in the main event at Foxwoods, stopping the Ukrainian challenger in the eighth round to retain his middleweight championship.
Martinez (47-2-2, 26 KO) didn't have what I would call an easy time with Dzinziruk (37-1-1, 23 KO), but that was to be expected. Dzinziruk is still the best junior middleweight in the world as far as I'm concerned, but Martinez would be the best junior middleweight in the world if he was still fighting at that weight, and is unquestionably the best middleweight in the world. It was just a matter of Martinez being that much better than another good fighter. Dzinziruk just doesn't have enough layers to counteract someone like Martinez, and it showed. Dzinziruk was down in the fourth and fifth round, and three times in the eighth before Arthur Mercante Jr. called a halt to the fight.
Later in the night, Martinez called out Miguel Cotto, but really I don't put much stock in that one. Top Rank has a lot of other options for Cotto, including a rematch with Antonio Margarito which will pique the interest of a lot of hardcore fans on both sides of that fence. Those two are for better or worse going to be eternally linked to one another. Puerto Rico versus Mexico is generally enough to sell a fight itself. But we're talking about a rematch of an incredible fight where controversy wound up growing months later. Or they could even eye a rematch with Manny Pacquiao if other options aren't available late this year. There's a lot for Cotto to do, and as unfair as it might be, Martinez needs him more than he needs to take a big risk against Martinez.
Photo by Teddy Blackburn/DBE
In the co-feature, and a fight that I really hope didn't determined Martinez's next challenger although it was a fine fight, Andy Lee scored a final round TKO over Craig McEwan for the best win of his career. Lee (25-1, 19 KO) had more than his share of trouble with McEwan (19-1, 10 KO), but finally put the Scot down and out 56 seconds into the tenth. McEwan was also down in the ninth round. At the time of stoppage, scores were 85-85 on two cards and 86-84 McEwan on the third. If McEwan had gotten up, reeling as he was, he still probably would have been stopped, and almost sure would have wound up losing a majority decision unless he staged his own remarkable rally. Lee fought like he wanted it in those last two rounds, and that was the difference maker. McEwan just ran out of steam.
While this was a good win for Lee, Martinez would make mincemeat of the Irishman. It wouldn't be a competitive fight at all. I really hope that's not what's next for Sergio, but it might be, because there just aren't that many names out there at 160 or 154.
After the jump, results from Glasgow, Argentina, Australia and a Friday night Vegas card you probably didn't know about. (It had Tye Fields!)
Glasgow, Scotland
- Ricky Burns RTD-7 Joseph Laryea: Laryea pulled out of the fight with a right hand injury, but was starting to fall apart anyway. Burns picked up the pace nicely after having trouble early on, and was starting to look like the obvious better fighter. I do hope we see Burns take on Mzonke Fana next. 130 is a very weak weight class, and that's about as good a fight as you're going to get in the division.
- James DeGale TKO-5 Alpay Kobal: A nothing fight for DeGale (10-0, 8 KO) as he prepares to face fellow top prospect George Groves.
- Paul Appleby PTS-6 Youssef Al Hamidi: A bounce-back win for Appleby (17-2, 11 KO), the former British featherweight champ who lost his last outing to Laryea in December. If Burns can't get a fight with one of the better names in the division, Appleby still wouldn't be the worst fall-back option.
Junin, Argentina
- Jonathan Victor Barros UD-12 Miguel Roman: Barros (32-1-1, 18 KO) retains his alphabet belt at 126 by outpointing Roman on tallies of 118-109, 118-110 and 117-111. "Mickey" Roman is likely best-known for his loss in a Texas backyard brawl with Antonio Escalante in February 2010, but just isn't world class. He falls to 33-8 (25 KO) with his five-fight win streak snapped.
Parana, Argentina
- Ulises David Lopez DQ-3 Carlos Wilfredo Vilches: You likely remember Vilches (55-10-2, 32 KO) from a vicious 2008 knockout at the hands of Juan Urango. Lopez (27-3, 15 KO) is supposedly fighting Yassine El Maachi on March 19 in Dagenham.
- Sebastian Lujan TKO-4 Juan Pablo Lucero: Remember back in 2008 when Lujan beat Jose Luis Castillo in dominant fashion on Wednesday Night Fights, and supposedly Castillo was going to retire? Here we are three years later, and Castillo is still fighting, while Lujan has faced nothing but mediocre opponents in Argentina since the win. Neither development is actually a surprise.
Las Vegas, Nevada
- Michael Grant KO-3 Tye Fields: Believe it or not, this was a PPV option on Friday night from Planet Hollywood. This one was purely for the heavyweight fetishists. This was reportedly a one-punch sort of knockout, with Grant (47-4, 35 KO) flattening the lumbering Fields (45-3, 41 KO) with a right hand. As much as I used to resent Fields' constant presence on that awful series that Top Rank ran on Versus for a while, I don't really mind him anymore. Since getting blasted by Monte Barrett in '08, Fields has basically become a part-time fighter and is quite aware of his limitations. These two fought because it's a "Battle of Giants" and it was a payday for them. At least they wound up throwing punches.
- Joel Casamayor SD-10 Manuel Leyva: Casamayor is reportedly fighting purely for money these days, which is sad. At his best, the tricky and admittedly dirty Cuban was one of the best fighters in the sport. But now he's 39 and is having trouble with fighters like Leyva, who had never fought anyone of any note, and Jason Davis, who is a pure club fighter. Casamayor is now 38-5-1 (22 KO), but his record doesn't really matter anymore. If he wins, he's not going to be beating anyone good, and if he loses, it's because he's not really Joel Casamayor anymore.
Perth, Australia
- Robbie Bryant UD-12 Togasilimai Letoa
- Billy Dib TKO-8 Billy Sismundo
- Daniel Dawson MD-8 Arnel Tinampay (Dawson's stock has dropped like a rock after building up a record from 2002-07.)
Polanco, Mexico
- Daniel Estrada TD-7 Arturo Gomez
- Gamaliel Diaz TKO-3 Rafael Urias
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I’m sad that Casamayor’s still fighting, but I don’t think he’s going to be one of those guys who get the living shit beat out of them before they’re forced to retire. Joel’s still too tricky and awkward to be absolutely beaten around the ring, and so I can sort of begrudgingly accept him fighting on. He steps back up, he loses, but he shouldn’t get hurt.
Martinez is just a hell of a load of awesome. Put him in with Pirog for some more fireworks please.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 13, 2011 5:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
+1
Pirog would be good, likely.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I can’t really conceive of how that fight could be bad. Martinez is excitement guaranteed no matter what, and Pirog is a highly skilled and speedy pressure fighter with power. It just sounds like a match made in heaven, no?
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 13, 2011 5:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Martinez is just a badass right now and now just realized that if he really wants to, he has enough pop to KO world class fighters.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
That analogy left a really nasty image in my mind haha. And yep, Martinez is an outrageous talent, but I think Pirog will make him work all night long, and it could be sensational to watch.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 13, 2011 6:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
honestly, i don’t think martinez’s pop has changed, I feel he’s changed styles. Before he always circled and countered and boxed his way to victory. As shown in the Cintron fight, he can down an opponent easly with a single shot. However, now that his stock has gone up, and to generate excitement he found he could use his speed and slickness to not only make an opponent miss, but to put combinations together and put some serious hurt on an opponent. I also think he’s growing physically stronger at 160 than he was at 154. Notice he initiates and sets up the action, whereas in the cintron and first williams fight, he was circling and looking for 1 or 2 punch counter punches. it’s awesome how he’s evolving from a slick counterpuncher into the ultimate offensive fighter. I feel still that it’s his footspeed from soccer and cycling that will continue to boggle all fighters his size.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Pirog and Kirkland would be a fight I would love to see… Angulo… common… I think that would be an epic beatdown. Cintron who is no master boxer himself exposed how crude he was… just think what Martinez would do to him.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
yeah, Angulo would be crucified.
He’d be fun re Kirkland tho’.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Angulo-Kirkland would be fun (and very brutal) while it lasted.
by glatin1982 on Mar 13, 2011 9:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i think pirog and sturm should be first in line, those other guys are 154 lber’s, and angulo has never even won world title. i think pirog would be a tough opponent, but martinez wins by late round tko, b/c pirog doens’t put punches together like martinez does, and martinez can catch him while he is trying to bob and slip punches. Amongst all the skill level analyses I feel the most striking thing is that Martinez has first class A grade ring iq. Him, Andre Ward, Bradley, and Donaire have a type of awareness and intelligence in the ring that will befuddle even more physically gifted athletes. They also don’t have any fundamental flaws that can be exposed.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
pirog is slick, but he only fights at one speed. Walks his opponent down, slips some shots, counters a few, walks his opponent down, slips some shots, and repeat. Martinez cna give him angles, direcitons, punches that he won’t see coming, and while he’s shelling up, martinez can pound him and sidestep and slide off, then counter pirog as he opens up. Pirog has the skill, but he hasn’t shown any more things in his toolbox than you’ll see in the first round of any of his fights. Either way, good skillful fights to come, and i hope martinez gets p4p status over pacquiao b/c he’s doing the right thing, and is focused, not trying to be congressman or handpick opponents. Fo’ sho!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
1.) martinez 2.) donaire 3.) pacquiao is how i’d like to see it in time, unless pacquiao fights and beats bradley (if he does), until then, martinez all the way!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
When Marinez moves up to cruiser and beats the best, then you can start to think about comparing his P4P status to Pac
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
by Matt Miller on Mar 14, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm exaggerating a bit here, but I do think the Martinez > Pac in P4P discussions are WAY premature.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
by Matt Miller on Mar 14, 2011 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Xactly. And NOT until then.
He has beaten two juniour middleweights for his mddleweight title defense.
He’s got a looong way to go before he should be compared to a small man fighting big men.
Case in point, Margarito weighed more than Martinez for his fight with Pacquiao.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
well, i do believe one can be p4p fighter without having to jump up 8,000,000 weight classes? I mean floyd, marquez, bhop, donaire did not jump that many to be labeled number 2. I thought p4p transgresses weight class, and talks about skill power relative to size/strength etc. I feel you don’t have to be a freak show to be number 1, just the best, and/or fighting the best. paul williams did win a few fights at 160 including beating winky wright, of course it was not prime winky wright, but it was still winky freak’in wright. and he did beat kelly pavlik pretty easily with his hands down, and cintron too.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
and besides going up 8 million weight classes (i am a pacqiuao fan, but a boxing fan first), pacquiao really faced the best of 147/154 or even 140? i think cotto and clottey were legit. oscar, mosley are not credible fights imo. hatton was okay, margarito was pretty unbelievable mainly b/c of the size factor, but could pacquiao have done this to dzinkziruk, andre berto, timothy bradley (who i think could beat pacqiuao and wear his down), alfredo angulo (a bona fide jr. middle), james kirkland, martinez at 154, paul williams, cintron, collazo, … not to say pacquiao hasn’t fought anyone, but i’m saying if someone else is fighting the best of the best at their division, and doing it well, why should we continue on the pacquiao wagon if someone has surpassed his accomplishments for the moment?
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Hatton was the undisputed undefeated junior middleweight champion for years
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
*Junior WELTERweight champion.....
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
sergio is beating junior middleweights for a title that..
last I noticed is called the Middleweight Championship of the World.
Bring on the real middleweights and then let’s talk.
Dz didnt have the power at middle to skin an apple.
And Martinez knew it.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Such as who?
Seriously, too…. who do you think is at 160 right now that would have beaten Sergei Dzinziruk last night?
Sturm? Maybe. But I don’t know anyone who thinks Sturm is a match for Sergio, and Sturm hasn’t exactly been champing at the bit to fight the topguys at 160, has he?
Pavlik? Martinez already beat him.
Williams, again?
Who would you rather have Martinez fight than the three guys he has just beaten, in order to prove himself the #1 at 160?
I know you love Manny Pacquiao, worship the ground he walks on and want to have his babies. But there is simply no need to try to belittle other guys in some ill-fated attempt to make Manny look better by comparison.
Manny is great, we get it. We really do. But Sergio Martinez has fought everyone of real relevance at 154 and 160 in the last few years, and there is simply no need to try to be disparaging toward him.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Also:
Sergio was giving Dzinziruk a chance to move up and attempt to take what he had.
Knock that all you want, but if David Diaz had chosen to fight an inferior guy at 135 instead of giving Manny the chance to fight him, he could have kept that belt. If Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto didn’t give Manny a chance to do exactly what Sergio gave Dzinziruk the chance to do last night, Manny quite likely would not be the global phenom he now is.
Hagler gave Hearns and Mugabi the same chance. I don’t hear anyone else saying that those fights were unworthy or that the guys they were fighting shouldn’t have been in there, and Hearns lasted a whole lot less time than Dzinziruk. So was Hagler also an unworthy champion?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Dude, don’t call pakinpower a pacquiao fanatic, that’s disrespectful, but he is critical of martinez, and looks up to pacquiao. All I’m saying is that Hatton doesn’t hold a candle to the best of 140 at the moment… khan, maidana, bradley, alexander would beat a prime hatton imo. Pacquiao hasn’t fought a boxer in a while. All I’m saying is that based on videos I’ve watched, dzinzuk looks good, but i could see his square but technical style being taken apart by maritnez;s slickness. also remember, martinez is oriignally a 154 fighter who put on some muscle and weight and rolled the dice at middleweight. he beat cintron and williams easily, two world class fighters, and pavlik, 3 world class fighters with ease. That says a lot. Throw in Dzinzuk, i looked up videos on him, and he no slouch. Martinez campaigning for p4p!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Dude, don’t call pakinpower a pacquiao fanatic, that’s disrespectful
It’s not ‘disrespectful’, it’s the fucking truth. No-one on here, not even pakinpower would disagree.
khan, maidana, bradley, alexander would beat a prime hatton imo
Ted, do you still have that bridge? I think I’ve found someone to buy it.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I’d like to see Sturm. I don’t think it would look much different than this fight did, but he’s been the consistent guy in the middleweight top five or so for a long time now.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
any notable fights i should see of sturm? I haven’t seen much of him, but know he’s had a belt forever and never fought anyone and supposedly beat dlh. pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
The Oscar fight, his two fights with Javier Castillejo, the first with Randy Griffin. He goes 1-2-1 in those fights, but I think those kind of give you the full feel of Sturm. I thought he got a raw deal against Oscar.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 13, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Pirog
Maybe you guys have seen more of him than I have, but I have only seen Pirog beat Danny Jacobs, and lord knows, Danny Jacobs is no Sergio Martinez. Has Pirog beat anyone worthwhile other than Jacobs? The last I heard he decided to trade his new found fame for a lame fight with unknown Argentinian in Russia…
Don’t get me wrong, Pirog looked good in that one fight, but he needs a bit more experience before he gets in with Maravilla. Frankly, he doesn’t deserve a fight with Maravilla.
I agree with Scott Christ, out of the current to middleweights, Sturm is the best option. Sturm has been a top middleweight for years now. Let’s not get carried away, it’s not like Sturm would win, but it would be a good unification bout and a good win for Martinez. Meanwhile, let Pirog and Lemieux battle it out for a fight with Martinez.
Not to be a contrarian but who is/was Sergei Dzinziruk?
Having never seen him, I personally had no idea when the fight was announced whether he was a good fighter, a very good fighter, or something special. I think I have my answers now.
What I don’t know is how to heavily to weight this particular Martinez victory, particularly in a boxing world that likes to write new histories the moment someone emerges and embarks on a run of victories.
I saw total dominance of a straight up European fighter last night; the latter descriptive not meant to be derogatory. If Dzinziruk was something more than ordinary, Martinez certainly didn’t let him show it. In the few moments when he initiated the action and held his own, he fared fairly well but was quickly open to crushing counters.
Martinez was masterful in dominating this guy. There was only one moment, just before the end of the 7th round when he was hurt and bothered seriously; his eye abraded with a series of solid shots. That Martinez took that injury as an incentive to end the night in the very next round is testimony to his skill and will as a champion.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Sergiy Dzinziruk is/was the best 154-pound fighter in the world, or at the very least you can make a strong argument for him. He’s a very good fighter and I liked this as much as I would have liked basically any possible fight for Martinez at the moment. I think this was a terrific win for Sergio. Dzinziruk had the gall to leave Universum and sacrifice a year of his career fighting over that just so he could seek out fights like this, and then once he got the chance he actually did it. I think there’s a lot to be said for that, and Dzinziruk is a very capable fighter, though like you said, a straight up European fighter. A good one, but that kind of fighter is always going to have hell with someone like Martinez, and Sergio showed why.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 13, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thx
Scott, I always try to judge a performance based not simply on the name of the opponent but the time and context in which the fight takes place. In other words, who has that fighter fought just before this fight, what were the styles that determined the outcome, and what was the context of that opponent’s record at the time they fought.
I think you get my drift…or at least I hope so.
For example, beating Fighter X means a lot (or doesn’t mean as much) if Fighter X had been winning by beating on severely overmatched or poor style match ups for his particular style. Or if he was beating Fighter X after they themselves had been faltering despite a record that may indicate otherwise.
I know that’s hard to always do, but I think it’s important.
I’m watching Sergio’s Surge like the rest of us and enjoying a man at his best.
I think RJJr. was right. Sergio’s confidence is sky high coming off of Williams. As well it should be. What remains now to be seen…now that we have seen Sergio on center stage…is whether his flaws, and there are a number, can be and will be exploited going forward.
I saw Whatever His Name Was beat him to the punch in the 7th round. I don’t know how good what’s his name was. I do know that he was not or never was a middleweight…..a fact everyone seems to be overlooking.
Pavlik had moments as well … but I think we know he also had many more with the bottle. Williams, well, forget LTP. Sergio ended that discussion.
I am waiting for the next fight to see if we are tuly on a historic run…or if the next fighter to meet Martinez sees and can exploit what only recently became a series of three consecutive speactacular wins.
And that’s just some of the many reasons why I love Boxing.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I hear what you mean and try to do the same myself. Not easy, like you said. And yeah, Roy made a good call there, I think. I’m not crazy about “aura,” but Sergio’s got one right now. He seems like he’s just flowing when he fights, kind of like Pacquiao after the Marquez rematch. It reminds me of basketball more than any other sport, oddly enough — those nights when Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant get in one of those zones and there is absolutely no containing them. But sooner or later they have an off-night, or someone locks them down, and they shoot 5-for-20.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Sergio's definitely locked in. That's a fact.
He looks very comfortable at weight.
That said, I don’t thinkl its too much to ask him to fight someone at full middle next time.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Who exactly should he be fighting at full middle? The Williams fight was one everyone wanted to see, and Martinez agreed to a catchweight to get it made. This time around he wanted to fight his mandatory but HBO forced him to take this fight. Quite frankly, even if Dzinziruk was moving up, he was a far better challenge than Zbik (or Lee, who was also considered).
Sturm clearly is not interested in the moment, and I doubt Sylvester is either. Pirog is the only champion who would fight Martinez, but his resume is not the most impressive and he’s been underexposed in the US. Martinez is also justifiably annoyed that the WBO stripped him almost immediately after the Pavlik fight to put his belt on the line for Pirog-Jacobs.
i don’t careman, he kicked cintron’s arse like it was easy, not even margarito made it look easy. margarito ate a lot of leather, martinez did it with ease.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Margarito ate Cintron alive twice and stopped Martinez in seven.
The record there is clear.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Margarito beat a weight-drained and hugely inexperienced Martinez. I wouldn’t buy into that result too much, to be honest.
On the Cintron thing, its a very contentious point saying Sergio dealt with Cintron better than Margarito, so I agree with you there. Margarito’s style means he’s always going to be hit – he still totally demoralised and then put a beating on Cintron twice.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 14, 2011 3:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But he beat him.
the weight drained BS is a canard. SM fought seven more times at welter after losing to Margarito and won. I can assure you that he cut weight for those fights as well. He’s abig guy
And BTW, is Martinez is using that to revise his story, then who is to say Margarito wasnt weight drained. He was always a huge welter.
Margarito beat and ruined Cintron. First he took his heart, then his liver. Martinez beat him, but really, so what?
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Margarito beat and ruined Cintron. First he took his heart, then his liver. Martinez beat him, but really, so what?
I actually agreed with you, but hey, never mind. And its easy for you to say ‘so what’, but I could also attach all the unnecessary rhetoric about taking hearts and stealing livers, and Martinez’ win would likewise sound brilliant.
On Martinez at weltweight: it has been widely established since that he was very uncomfortable making the weight throughout that period, and became a much better and stronger fighter once he moved up to 154. How difficult is that to accept? The Martinez that fought then is a totally different Martinez to the one fighting now.
Honestly, do you work for the Top Rank press machine?
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 14, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, do you work for the Top Rank press machine?
He might as well.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I have no problem with appreciating TR
But my regard for Margarito has to with with Antonio Margarito the fighter, who I unabashedlythis is a beast.
Below are the words of Nazim Richardson yesterday…and last I looked he is not shilling for Top Rank.
Please note his comments regarding Margarito and Pacquiao’s unique virtues:
http://www.boxingscene.com/naazim-richardson-talks-cotto-margarito-pacquiao—36971
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
typo.....unabashedly think
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
It intriques me that no one complains that SM is fighting junior middles
for a title called Middleweight.
Talk about double standards and bandwagon. There’s no mention of catchweights for fighting smaller men. And celebration of beating a guy who despite his undefeated record was undistinquished … and underpowered.
I want to see Martinez beat middleweights before I call him “Marvelous”
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Again, which middleweights posed bigger challenges than Williams and Dzinziruk? The catchweight was demanded by Williams’ camp, even though Williams himself had fought at middleweight three times prior to that match. Dzinziruk and Martinez weighed exact same amount at the scales for this fight. Your attacks on his resume strike me as quite unfair.
Also, the mere fact that you hadn’t heard of Dzinziruk does not mean his record was undistinguished.
The guy was virtually inactive for five years
He fought one time a year against nobody of note … and was taken the distance vitually ever time.
Check the record before getting so high on last night’s victory.
Dz was a feather fisted junior middleweight. An inactive middle age fighter; not middle weight.
This is one over-rated victory
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Dzinziruk’s wins over Santos (right after he defeated Margarito) and Julio are both notable. Dzinziruk also actually has a better knockout rate than Martinez did.
Martinez is getting credit not just for winning but for the manner in which he did so. Dzinziruk had never been down in his career and his jab is considered one of the best in the sport. Most experts predicted Martinez would win but would not look impressive, likely pulling out a close decision. Instead Martinez outjabbed Dzinziruk, put him on the canvas multiple times, and scored the knockout. I also didn’t see Martinez simply eating jabs because Dzinziruk was featherfisted, but instead making him miss often with his most potent weapon.
He is undistinguished
That is exactly why no one had heard of him.
And very inactive . most likely because no one cared.
If Manny Pacquiao beat Lamont Peterson, should we care? No! If he beat Victor Ortiz, should we care? No!
If he beat Juan Urango, Zab Judah, Paul McCloskey, would you care? I doubt it.
Why? Because they are all men who fight at junior welterweight, not welterweight.
BTW, They are, like Dz, all rated in the top ten by Ring Magazine.
Martinez’s victory was pretty. That’s about it.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
He is undistinguished. That is exactly why no one had heard of him.
“Nobody’s ever heard of” a lot of good fighters.
And very inactive. most likely because no one cared.
He’s been inactive getting out of his old deal with Universum. I’m just trying to be fair here, not change your mind.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
That is fair enough
He did get out of his deal with Universum and then he took on a big challenge, I assume to fight on HBO … fighting a bigger man for his title. So to be really fair, it’s Dz who deserves credit.
It’s the excessive credit being given Martinez that is odd.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Its hardly excessive. For generations, the top fighters at their weights move up to fight for titles at higher weights. That’s what Paul Williams did, that’s what Sergio Martinez did, and that’s what Sergiy Dzinzuruk did. Dzinzuruk was an excellent fighter at 154 – and certainly not ‘undistinguished’ – and was about as tough a fight for Sergio as any he could have got at 160. Sturm didn’t want it, nor did Pirog for the time being, and HBO wouldn’t allow Zbik or Andy Lee as challengers, and rightly so. Would you be praising Martinez more for fighting Zbik or Lee, as ‘genuine’ middleweights?
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 14, 2011 4:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, I wouldn't
Would you praise Manny for beating up Lamont Petrson. No, you shouldn’t.
Or Floyd for beating JMM. No, you shouldn’t.
Please tell e one reason to acknowledge that Dz was ‘distinguished’.
I’m listening.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You’re saying two very different things at once here. “He should fight middleweights,” you said. OK, fine, but then someone asks if Middleweight X or MIddleweight Y would have been a better option, and you say no and compare it to Manny Pacquiao fighting a guy a division below him, or Floyd who actually fought a guy two divisions below hiim. So who should he have fought instead? Should he have not fought at all? Was he supposed to make Dmitry Pirog fight? Pirog, who has all of one good win ever, and God knows how good it really is, since Danny Jacobs is truly undistinguished, although more people have heard of him than have Dzinziruk in the US?
I don’t have an issue with you not thinking much of Dzinziruk. Fair enough. I’d seen him fight before Saturday and still feel it’s a quite good, though not great, win for Martinez. I don’t have an issue with you disagreeing with me or anyone there. I don’t have an issue with you feeling, as you appear to, that Martinez is probably getting too much credit overall. But to be totally honest, I don’t think you see a fight that Martinez can take that would be fitting for your standards here, whatever they are exactly. And at this point, I don’t know what your rally cry really is other than what I’ve already tried to sum up here, because you’re being kind of inconsistent, and coming to the same conclusion no matter what anyone offers, which is your prerogative and all that, but we’re probably just circling the drain here by now.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 4:43 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And at this point, I don’t know what your rally cry really is other than what I’ve already tried to sum up here,
TOP RANK!!! TOP RANK!!! TOP RANK!!!
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
I'm a Lou DiBella fan as well
Not Golden Boy however.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Take notice
I have been one of miguel cotto’s biggest critics and absolutely believe kelly pavlik was overrrated.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I'm cool with the below.
I don’t have an issue with you feeling, as you appear to, that Martinez is probably getting too much credit overall.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I wouldn't either
But, Parkin, you are being a little harsh on Martinez’s accomplishments.
1. When he fought Pavlik, Pavlik was the # 1 ranked middleweight in the world. His only loss being against Hopkins…at 170. Pavlik went into the fight with Martinez as the favorite. It’s 20/20 hindsight to say that the Pavlik wasn’t a good one at the time. Sergio moved up from 154 to challenge the champion at 160.
2. Paul Williams was a top ten p4p fighter when he fought Sergio both times. In the second fight, it was an even money fight, but in the first fight, Williams was favored and most people thought he would beat the pulp out of Martinez. That was when Williams was referred to as the “most feared fighter in the world.” In the second Williams fight, Wiliams made Sergio drop to a catchweight of 158 and take a ton of other concessions for the fight that I can’t recall now. It’s documented somewhere. Martinez took it in stride and produced the KO of the year.
Right there with nothing else, Martinez disposed on the top middleweight in the world and the a p4p top ten fighter at the time of the fights.
Maybe you hadn’t heard of Dzinziruk. I saw him fight Santos a few years back when Santos was considered hot ish. And he whupped Santos. Then I saw him dispose of an unknown Aussie on Showtime last year. It may be reflective of the landscape at 154, but Sergiy is the best junior middleweight out there. He beats Cotto, Angulo (turned a fight down with Sergiy btw) and any of other belt holders. Kirkland when he gets back to form may be another story.
Sergio’s last five fights though rival any other boxer in terms of strength of schedule.
Yes, he fought and beat KP
And won the middleweight title.
But beating junior middleweights does not mean jack shite to me as far as his defending that title.
His latter fights should not be catchweight fights for his very well earned middleweight title. They should be what they are. Cahweight fights in defense of the Junior Middleweight title.
That may not be his fault ….as he is a fighter, not a promoter….but the fact is he is winning middleweight title defenses against men who are not middleweights. Then calling out Floyd and Manny who are even smaller.
I will say this. if he fights Floyd, he better get his hands up. Other wise, I believe he will get picked apart.
Manny is much smaller but the same is true.
Hands down and he will find himself in the same place as he did vs Williams in their first fight,. Sitting on his ass.
But I digress. Sergio walks around at 175. IMO, He should call out Abraham, Ward or Bute.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Ah, so Sergio should call Ward and Bute out. And if Ward or Bute were to win, would they not be deserving of any credit either?
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 14, 2011 7:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Calling out Manny and Floyd
is undersatndable from a financial POV only.
As a middleweight titlest, it’s….absurd.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Yep, Martinez should SO not have fought at a catchweight. I mean, Manny Pacquaio totally didn’t fight at 150 for a junior middlweight belt with Tony Margarito…
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 14, 2011 7:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you dont's get the fighting UP in weight
is more impressive than fighting DOWN, there’s nothing I can add.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
How does that even PARTIALLY answer what Oli just said?
MO thus far:
OliGold makes a good point
pakinpower then ignores said point, and just makes another comment about what he was going to say anyway.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Oili said:
I mean, Manny Pacquaio totally didn’t fight at 150 for a junior middlweight belt with Tony Margarito…
and I answered.
There is a BIG difference fighting bigger men, even at catchweighs, than fighting SMALLER men at catchweights for a title that you own.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Come on. As I already noted, Williams had fought at middleweight on multiple occasions prior to the Martinez rematch and demanded the catchweight in order to try to weaken his opponent. I would note there’s also a BIG difference between demanding catchweights of beltholders or even for vacant titles and accepting them as a champion to one’s own detriment. But you’re right, Martinez beating up on tiny Paul Williams for his first defense was unimpressive.
Better look closer.
Paul Williams NEVER IN HIS LIFE fought weighing more than 157 pounds! In other words, he never was a middleweight; not on that night or on any other.
If you are remotely suggesting that Sergio Martinez ‘s accomplishments come close to Manny Pacquiao’s, we should end this conversation.
As for SM’s accomplishments as a middleweight, they pale thus far to any the great predessors who have held that title.
I remember everyone getting all worked up about a guy named Kelly Pavlik once and in retrospect rightfully so. He beat Jermaine Taylor for a title after Taylor beat Bernard hopkins twice.
That story ended with a whimper. We will see how long Sergio’s March endures. But his mark as Middlewewight will be measured by fighting middleweights. Not juniors.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Well I guess since Martinez has never officially weighed in at a full 160 the day before a fight, he’s not yet a middleweight either. You yourself declared after the Williams fight that size had absolutely nothing to do with the knockout, yet you are now constantly calling Williams a junior middleweight and appearing to discredit Martinez’s victory. I don’t remember a single person questioning the quality of opponent for Martinez’s first defense, and the only ones who did for this most recent fight were those who had no idea who Dzinziruk was.
Much of that is true
But I think you will agree ….as would every other athlete suddenly turned star….that the scrutiny changes when you are suddenly up on the pedestal.
Martinez’s accomplishments in the ring speak for themselves. He exceeded what he needed to do whenever he was challenged.
But now that the fights are over and there’s time to reflect and examine them more closely, I just don’t think they stack up to the fuss.
BTW, I am sure that if you read my comments regarding Williams in the past you will note my consistent severe criticism of a tall man fighting small. The emphasis was always on small.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
So Manny forcing Margarito down in weight is better than Martinez fighting a guy who had fought three times at middleweight and had previously signed to fight Kelly Pavlik? Lest you forget, Williams had fought more at middleweight than Martinez had as of their second fight.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 15, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
All this said, let' talk boxing
I do not think that Martinez is the bee’s knees. I think he’s a very cool phenomenon whose speed and athleticism is unquestioned but whose boxing skills are overrated because he is in a very weak division (s).
Most of us agree with that last bit if nothing else.
I also believe that he exists unconventionally and that if he were to be matched with someone of truly the same size or bigger with real boxing skills, he could be embarrassed and defefeated.
In fact, as I have said, I think Floyd Mayweather beats Sergio Martinez easily.
And you all know I’m no FOF (Fan of Floyd)
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I'll take Sergio to batter Floyd at 154
which is, to be fair, the only weight at which the fight could realistically be made.
I think Floyd would get his ass handed to him, to be honest.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Fair enough
my father gambled away whatever money our family might have had, so Im not much for wagering myself.
But I’ll take yours should floyd ever fight anyone.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
i bet you even more money floyd will never fight anyone, nonetheless martinez at 154. he only took that risk b/c beating an old, but still game oscar would make him the biggest name in boxing, which it did for 3-4 years. i bet floyd won’t fight until 2012, while watching his prime dwindle, and watching stars emerge (ward, bradley, pacquiao, martinez) and wanting to jump in the mix. also notice no one gave a SH*T when floyd mouthed off some words about pacqiuao the day before the bradley alexander fight, which i hold to be the biggest fight in boxing to be made at that time period.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I agree. Totally.
But I’d still back Sergio over Floyd at 154, should that fight take place.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
His latter fights should not be catchweight fights for his very well earned middleweight title. They should be what they are. Cahweight fights in defense of the Junior Middleweight title.
You criticised catchweight title fights. I pointed out Manny Pacquiao fought a catchweight title fight. The blatant hypocrisy behind most of your arguments is once again exposed.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Mar 15, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
It is one bad division at the moment, IMHO
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Lot of good prospects about to beef up the ranks, but it’s weak after Martinez before you get to those guys.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 14, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
This time around he wanted to fight his mandatory but HBO forced him to take this fight. Quite frankly, even if Dzinziruk was moving up, he was a far better challenge than Zbik (or Lee, who was also considered).
Amen to that.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Since I'm a confirmed AA hater
I would love to see Queen Arthur try to go back down to middleweight and get an ass whooping from Marinez he deserves. He’ll learn the hard way why, when you are on the ground, you don’t ever want to get hit.
Because, sure as I’m typing this now, Sergio would pick him apart until he either sat down…or fell.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
only the pleasure of watching the odious AA get beatdown would justify that fight...
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
by Matt Miller on Mar 14, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Funny, I don't see AA trying to make middle weight any time soon.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
it's all the justification I need.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
BTW
Ring, ring
Martinez: hello?
Earth: I miss you, and glatin is a moron for doubting you.
by glatin1982 on Mar 13, 2011 9:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
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