Here's a big argument at the Pascal-Hopkins II press conference on Monday, if you're into that sort of thing.
about 1 year ago
Scott Christ
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So, Pascal was yelling “take the test, Bernard”? Is that right? Drug test? PED test, I assume. Didn’t know that was an issue.
I don’t want to get it into this, this is my own personal feeling based on my own personal (and admittedly limited) experience: virtually every high level pro athlete takes PEDs.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Yeah
Pascal feels that Bernard should blood test since he was so ripped at an advanced age. Lets be honest, they are all probably cheating, because it would be stupid not to be cheating, as you can gain an advantage and not get caught….. I see this as a nonissue, everyone cheats the same, and we move on.
by journeyintosound on Mar 29, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
easy does it, yorky.
just my belief based on my experience.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
That wasn't aimed at you
My comment wasn’t anyway.
Mine was aimed at first at Pascal and then at the comment below yours.
I
But
i would say unless there is proof or someone looks like they cheat through an overly muscled pyhsique it’s just speculation.
If anyone looks overly muscled it’s Pascal and if anything,Bernard was showing his age in the first few rds.
Don’t get so defensive,collins.
Pascal feels that Bernard should blood test since he was so ripped at an advanced age. Lets be honest, they are all probably cheating, because it would be stupid not to be cheating, as you can gain an advantage and not get caught….. I see this as a nonissue, everyone cheats the same, and we move on.
The whole of that was what i was referring to.I never even read your comment the first time to be honest.
Hopkins has never,ever been “ripped”.
Pascal as the ripped physique,Hopkins is a slim build and was always very tall for a middleweight..
Amd,as i said.i think Pascal’s attitude is pretty dumb too.
He’s jsut grapsing at straws,imo and he looked very uncomfortable in the first fight as Hopkins makes most of his opponents feel.
I don’t doubt many athletes take PED’s but there is absolutely no proof that Hopkins is one of them.
Were Archie Moore and George Foreman drug cheats too now??
Ridiculous,unfounded crap.
Ridiculous,unfounded crap.
Yes.
At this point, the minute I hear such allegations directed at a heretofore unaccused, never-tested-positive in 100 ring yrs. of using anything, no real indication of any abuse at all, all I can hear is Lil Floyd and the ducker mentality he conjures up. He’s excuse hunting, which says he’s not up to the challenge (in his own head) to me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
*itals meant to be block quote.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
PED use is rampant across pro sports. Boxing has perhaps the worst, most ineffective testing scheme of any pro sport. It is basically an honor code based on self-enforcement. HS kids can figure out how to beat a urine-only test. We’re burying our heads in the sand if we think a huge chunk of these guys aren’t doping.
Do I have direct evidence to support that? Naa, not really. But I’ve seen it twice at a much lower level – guys who went from their pro debut to signing with middling regional promoters – taken to a “nutritionist” who put ’em on a batch of shit of shit a lot of which is banned.
And I played NCAA DI tennis – which has virtually the same, ineffective urine only drug testing. And I’d say 75% of the guys doped to some extent. Myself included.
So that’s my experience. Do I have any direct evidence that ‘Nard in particular is doping? nope. Do I think he is? Yea, I’d bet on it. I’d also bet Pascal is.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Oh yeah it shocks me whenever people think the steroid era was just for baseball and cycling. If there is a way to cheat, people will do it, whatever the profession. Athletes cheat, bankers cheat, politicians cheat, students cheat, teachers cheat, everyone fucking cheats.
Assuming that the one sport where people would benefit greatly from PED’s during training just because no one is testing is positive is completely delusional.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 29, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Some are worse at cheating then others....
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=mmaweekly-121854e30484561541f21463484a37d3
I wonder who/how they collected the sample
by boxzilla on Mar 29, 2011 7:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We aren’t exactly dealing with brain surgeons here….
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Mar 29, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I do think that there are plenty of boxers and athletes in general that use PED’s or cheat in whatever way they can get away with, however I think that saying that is very different to saying that most high level athletes do so. I think when it comes to accusing someone of any wrong doing unless you have some concrete proof or clear indication of the wrong doing, it is terribly unfair to accuse anyone of it.
I don’t doubt the experiences you describe, but I think that to paint a whole population on such a small sample of data is a low blow to many athletes. I’m assuming the 75% you think doped were people somewhat related to you (rivals, training partners, friends, etc.), yet even if you are accurate in that %, how does the actual number of people (10, 20, 30… people), compare to the total number of athletes in the division you played?
As for the testing standards of boxing I agree they are severely lacking, however I don’t think they are any worse than most other pro sports, especially compared to team sports. (which speaks bad of pro sports in general). In terms of actual testing, the only pro league I’m aware of that randomly tests blood samples is pro tennis, so regarding what they test for, everyone else is in the urine only boat.
by leo_solis on Mar 30, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
for its entirety, but especially for:
I think when it comes to accusing someone of any wrong doing unless you have some concrete proof or clear indication of the wrong doing, it is terribly unfair to accuse anyone of it.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
They all come with a presumption of cheating. I accuse them all, equally until proven otherwise.
Like I said above, we’re ostriches with our heads in the sand if we don’t think a huge percentage are juicing. It’s admirable that several of you want to hold tight to the idea that these guys aren’t juicing – it’s actually kind of sweet. But there are no longer marijuana arrests in Travis County (Austin), Texas, do you think that’s because nobody is smoking weed?
And frankly, Bernard’s dirty – he elbows, pretends to get hit in the balls and rolls around on the ground (see fight v. Calzaghe, J.), he hits and holds relentlessly. I’ve got concrete evidence he’s a dirty SOB.
Also, boxing’s epic abominable weakness in testing is two-fold – (1) it’s urine only and (2) there’s nothing random about it. Tennis, cycling, baseball, NFL, NHL, NBA, shit I think bowling – all provide for random testing procedures at least during the season even though many are urine-only. Pro boxers know you know the date the test there weak piss test coming down.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
by lcollins1 on Mar 30, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In the US, where both of us live, there is a presumption in law of innocence till proven guilty, a tack not taken by most other nations. Not sure it’s totally unique, but it’s unusual worldwide. I’m sticking with it—just because you know a lot of PEDs users, doesn’t mean we all do. And the fact is, BH really doesn’t look it, and he’s old enough for sure he would look like one of lil floyd’s bodyguards by now if he used steroids. Not saying he’s not perfectly legit, but of the two of them, Pascal looks ’roided, not to say he is.
However, re in-ring fouls—rabbiting, holding and hitting, low blows, faking DQ fouls, whatever, fine, he’s dirty. Many, at least occasionally, are—Ali most certainly included (holding and hitting), but that’s not the issue here.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
there is a presumption in law of innocence till proven guilty
Only applies to the criminal justice system. We…are not a court.
BH really doesn’t look it
What does that mean in 2011? Do the cyclists and tennis players who pop every year “look it”? We’re not talking about anabolic steroids, so I have no idea what the “look it” test means.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Most pro boxers are almost certainly not using anabolic steroids as that….wouldn’t work very well.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
The main effect of steroids is an increase in muscle mass and therefore the amount of force that can be generated by a person. The only way that would not work out very well for a fighter is if he decides to turn into the Hulk and completely forgets about actually honing his skills.
anabolic steroids add mass and reduce aerobic efficiency – it doesn’t make sense for an athlete who has to make weight unless you’re a very small HW. James Toney tested positive for an anabolic steroid, other than that – I think it is pretty rare.
What is isn’t rare is using something like EPO or adding blood cells pre-fight in order to boost aerobic efficiency. That works beautifully in sports like tennis and cycling. Those methods aren’t going to change the body type, and they’re not susceptible to the “look it” test.
The designed drug that Shane Mosley was on provided a similar benefit: recovery. It was adding efficiency and the ability to go at the same high level, longer.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
I second what BoxAnne just replied and would like to add a bit more to it. The problem about presuming guilt in situations like this is that really there is no way to prove a negative, therefore it is impossible to ever meet that standard. Most people assume that doing random blood tests guarantees an athlete is clean, yet it does not. When it comes to PED’s the tests are always a step behind from the cutting edge technology due to the simple fact you can only test for what you know exists. Remember that Marion Jones won 5 gold medals while passing all olympic tests (which are always the strongest of all sports). She was only found guilty based on the BALCO investigation, not because she failed any test. So even if an athlete tests clean 100% of the time using the best test available, it does not guarantee he or she is clean, just that so far there is no evidence to say cheating has occurred.
The deficiency about boxing using urine tests only is one shared with almost all pro sports (tennis is the only exception I know), so in this regard boxing is not better or worse than the rest (which doesn’t mean it is good, just that in general everyone is weak here). With regard to the random testing I agree it should be random throughout the year (I believe at the time they get randomly tested once every six months, and on fight night every time). While I think this is not effective, compared to other sports I do not think it is much weaker, especially compared to team sports (which again means everyone sucks). The fact boxers know they will be tested on fight night means that at least come fight night there is a better chance they will be off of whatever they take, so the benefits acquired would be during the training phase and then whatever carries over to the fight without leaving traces. The way most other sports do it, is by randomly selecting players to be tested so there is a good chance players will go full years without ever being tested. This is particularly true for team sports where only a small percentage of the players on each team gets tested, so if an athlete plays the odds right, which in most cases are in their favor, the risk of being tested is fairly low. So not saying boxing has a good system (it does not), just that it is not worse than other sports.
Having said all this, the final question I would pose to you, is if you assume all boxers are dirty, how come you follow boxing? From your response to me in the Cotto-Margarito thread, it appeared to me that you thought Margarito should be banned because you think he knew his gloves were loaded. I’m assuming you think he should be banned because he attempted to cheat, or because of the risk involved in the type of cheating (or both). If that is the case why not the same standard to PED’s since both are cheating and both can have the same effect of giving a fighter greater punching power than what he should have (I’d argue PED’s have more benefits than this, and are therefore more dangerous) thus increasing the risk on the integrity of the opposite fighter .
yea, I’m not saying that I have any direct information that BHop is a juicer, I just believe that he is and would bet that he is. I believe that most world class boxers take PEDs.
While I think this is not effective, compared to other sports I do not think it is much weaker
It’s significantly weaker. Knowing the test date allows cycling drugs and messing with blood cell counts. James Toney was cycling drugs when he got caught a few years ago, he just fucked up on his dates. Boxing’s system of a known and fixed test date is especially shitty in this regard. Other major sports allow testing out of season and at any random time. The NCAA also has random testing. We are at the bottom, make no mistake about that. Pro boxing has the worst testing policy of any pro sport that can be defined as a sport.
As far as Margarito and the distinction between PED use and plastered hands, I think there are significant differences. Plastered hands do significant damage. (See Billy Collins). Moreover, almost nobody plasters their hands. It’s also easy to prevent if your trainer is someone other than Evangelista Cotto.
As PEDs haven’t been shown to help someone hit a baseball a greater distance, I don’t think they help people punch harder. I think they help people punch hard longer. (preceding two sentences are anecdotal). Also, I think in most pro boxing fights that appear on tv, we’re watching two individuals who are both juicing – in pari delicto, so an improper advantage isn’t there.
But here’s the thing: we should do one of two things -
1. enforce the rules. Get real blood testing procedures in place. USAADA style. Right now we have a large number of fans who believe that we have legit testing. We don’t. It’s a joke.
2. Open shit up: let’s make this human horse-racing. Move to be the first pro sport where you can do whatever you want, shoot whatever you want, and we’ll see the best of the best. You want to see guys go a full 12? You want to see guys get up from multiple knockdowns? Bionic boxing may have the odd horror story, but at least it will have some integrity.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Please bear with me, this may be long
I’m aware of the Billy Collins fight with Resto, however something that usually gets forgotten when people talk about that fight is that in addition of the plastered hands Resto fought with less padding inside his gloves, which in my opinion was the determinant factor in the beating Collins took and not the plastered hands. The reason I say that is because of the physics involved in punching.
There are only two phyiscal ways in which a fighter loading his gloves could cause more damage than with a regular glove:
1: The added mass to the gloves should mean more force from each punch since F = m*a. How much the force increases would determined by the weight of the load, so to see a significant increase in force the heavier the object the better. The higher the force of each punch the higher the acceleration and torques that would be experienced by the brain inside the head so there is a better chance of a KO against the opponent and a higher risk of causing some type of brain injury (either temporary or permanent).
2: Having a hard object with a small surface area in the hand means that all the force from each punch gets translated to the head in a very small region, so pressure in that spot would be much higher. This means greater chance of cutting the skin or breaking the skull of the opponent (this is what happens with people hit by brass knuckless).
Continuation
Where to me things fall apart in the physics behind this is here:
1: Increasing the mass of the fist or glove will only produce more force if the acceleration remains constant. If you assume that this fighter was already punching at the physical limit of his capabilities (meaning acceleration was maxed already) with legal gloves, the added mass can only result in a loss of acceleration, thus gains in force from an increased mass would be lost by a decrease in acceleration in each punch. If the punch acceleration was not maxed before, and the fighter can increase it to keep it at levels consistent with using legal gloves, he would be doing so at a higher energy cost. In the long run this means the fighter is likely to get tired faster, which would result in even slower less force producing punches. So the benefit of loading the gloves would only be limited to the initial part of a fight (assuming the fighter can keep the acceleration of his punches consstant), the moment that is gone, is all downhill from there, since he could end up losing so much acceleration in his punches that he ends up punching with less force than with legal gloves, and that is assuming he can make contact, since as he gets slower his opponent is more likely to avoid said punches. Another downside of tiring faster is that he would probably become less effective overall, including in his defense, meaning he’d be more vulnerable to being hit back.
2: What I descibed in point 2 above would apply if fighters fought without gloves. Once the gloves are on those benefits go out the window since the padding and size of the gloves nullifies those peaks of high pressure. In fact, giving that at each punch a force is also generated towards the fist I’d say the puncher’s hand is more likely to be hurt than the punched face. If you picture this situation like a multilayer sandwich, you have a boxer’s head on one end, then padding from the glove, the hard object, and then the fist at the other end. In this scenario the highest pressure points will occur at the hard object-fist interface, not at the glove-face interface since a lot of the force and pressure generated by the punch will be absorbed by the padding.
Conclusion
So to me the main factor in the damage Collins suffered was not the plaster but the reduced padding.
Now when it comes to PED’s the specific effects can vary depending on the substance used but here is a nice summary “The reasons specific drugs may be used as doping agents are multiple and include, but are not limited to increasing strength and power, increasing lean body mass, decreasing body fat, increasing aggressiveness, improving recovery time, making weight, masking pain, enhancing reaction
time, increasing eye-hand coordination, masking fatigue, masking other drugs, and increasing endurance.” (From Doping and Drugs in Boxing, by G. Wadler, Clinics in Sports Medicine 2009).
So a fighter doped could punch harder, faster, and without getting tired, all of which translate to more potential damage to the opponent not just by punching with more force, but by being faster increasing the chances of actually hitting his target, and not getting tired as easily, allowing him to continue the beating into the late rounds
Finally, when it comes to detection you are correct, loaded gloves should be detectable 100% of the time, PED’s on the other hand… well that’s how we started this thread.
So for the reasons above is that I think PED’s can be as dangerous if not more than loading gloves, and as such anyone caught using them should be banned as much as someone trying to load his gloves.
you can’t take the padding out without casting the hands, – hands break – Resto said it.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Yes, the chances of breaking your hands are higher with less padding, however there is no guarantee that will happen as MMA fighters fight with smaller gloves and boxing itself used to be fought with much smaller gloves or no gloves at all. Having said that, putting plaster between your hand and the padding will not protect your hand, it will only increase the chance of you breaking it, since it will be directly hitting a hard object without any protection.
the protection on the hand isn’t much less on an MMA glove – and the hands are wrapped – I’ve worn them.
If I recall correctly, gloves were instituted in large part to protect the hand.
I don’t buy your last sentence at all. The result will be a literal formed cast of your hand.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
You are correct, the result would be a cast around the hand if done like in the Resto case, in Maragarito’s situation it was like putting a rock on your knuckles. However even with the cast around your hand you would still be generating higher pressure levels between the fist and the cast than what you would get bewteen knuckels and padding (even if reduced). The only way to avoid this problem would be if a lot of padding is placed between the hand and the cast.
That article lost all credibility for me when it said “increasing aggressiveness” – I can’t take that shit seriously. That’s like somebody saying “man those boxers must get themselves so angry before they go in the ring so they just go nuts when the bell rings”. Yea right.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Don’t people applaud Kirkland’s viciousness? Wasn’t one of Valero’s main appeals his aggresive style? How many fighter’s have said they are going to kill or seriously hurt their oppents and then are applauded for going right after their opponents? Isn’t one of Floyd’s main critiques that he fights too defensively?, that he doesn’t take too many risks or have a killer instict? Whether or not a fighter would take PED’s to become more aggresive is debatable, but I do think many people would consider aggresiveness as a desirable trait in a boxer.
How many fighter’s have said they are going to kill or seriously hurt their oppents
This is a sport, a skill, a profession. It’s not a clean and jerk strong man contest. Kirkland isn’t in a blind rage when he fights, neither was Valero. That doesn’t work – that isn’t real. It’s not a bar fight.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
I agree with what you say that there is skill behind it. Like I mentioned before whether someone would use PED’s with the sole intent of becoming more aggresive is debatable. I think the author of the article simply listed all the known effects of using different kinds of PED’s, and increased aggressiveness is a known side effect of steroids.
right – but be careful not to conflate PEDs and steroids as one thing. An anabolic steroid is one specific category within the large umbrella of PEDs. I don’t think blood doping or EPO would create aggression.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Agree that anabolic steroids are a category of PED’s and are the only type of PED’s associated with aggressiveness (that I know of). When I talked about whether or not a fighter would use PED’s with the intent to increase aggressiveness I was referring to steroids (since they are a PED). I appologize for the confusion.
and I don’t believe that PEDs will efficiently add power for a boxer – not going to work unless you take away significant skills and put him a different weight class.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
To gain power a fighter doesn’t necessarily need to get bigger. Power can be gained by increasing speed, by increasing accuracy (which can be increased by longer or more training sessions if the fighter uses something to boost endurance or reduce recovery times). Just by having endurance higher than he should (like with the use of EPO), even if there is no increase in max power, whatever that max power is can be maintained for longer as the fight goes on instead of going down due to fatigue.
How things work out would depend on what the fighter takes.
even if there is no increase in max power, whatever that max power is can be maintained for longer as the fight goes on instead of going down due to fatigue.
Here we agree.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
how would it add mass – plaster isn’t heavy – it’s hard.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
All objects have mass even if very small. Any object placed inside the glove would add mass, even a feather. Whether that mass is large enough to have a significant effect on the force of a punch would be the issue. Yes plaster is hard , that was my point no. 2
as far as “adding mass” though. Presumably (and you’d know, not me), the texture or, for lack of a better term “hardness” of something doesn’t add or detract from its mass. Right?
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
I don’t know if this is the way to analyze it – we’re talking about a wrap being saturated in plaster of paris – I don’t think that would take up any more space within the glove.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
what I’m saying here is that we’re not adding any objects. Instead of the wrap being slightly wet with water, it’s slightly wet with plaster of paris, which then hardens on the outside while the inside (touching the actual hand) is still unsaturated cotton. Isn’t that how it functions?
But I guess that would add some mass because plaster of paris is comprised of little pieces. But it seems you’d get a pretty big “bang for your buck”, sort of pound for pound value out of that arrangement, like a light-weight Kevlar tennis racquet as opposed to a steal one.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Plaster of paris is heavier than water, so while the volume of wet wraps would be roughly the same regarless of what they get wet with, the mass of wraps wet with plaster of paris would be greater than the mass of wraps wet with water. Any bandage or wrap wet with plaster will dry throughout, leaving no soft surfaces. The only way to have any soft material (cotton, gauze, tape, etc) between the hand and the set cast is if the hand is first wrapped in this softer material to act ass padding, and then wraps wet with plaster of paris are wrapped around the hand over this soft material. If a fighter wraps his hands first and then just dips them in plaster of paris would cause all soft material that gets wet to harden.
On this topic, I’ve used plaster of paris from time to time to make casts and immobilize limbs, and I’ve noticed two things:
1. Plaster of paris only hardens when it is completely dry, so for it to work as a hard object it would have to be completely dry before putting the gloves on. If the gloves are put on with the plaster still wet it will never harden in time, since the sweat and moisture produced by the hands (now ina confined environment) would delay the hardening process significantly.
2. In small amounts plaster of paris is extremely brittle. To get a cast that is strong and hard enough (like what you’d want to load gloves), you’d need massive amounts (layers) of wraps wet in plaster, anywere from 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch thick, otherwise it would get crushed and turn into powder in no time.
I’m not trying to discredit you, just honest evaluation of the opinion expressed:
though you are a scientist, you’re not an expert on plaster of paris or how it operates. You’ve used it a few times, other than that, you have a limited basis for that opinion. Is that a correct statement?
What do you make of Naz’s comment that the wraps were “way too hard” when he initially felt them? Could they have already been set for some time before he got there?
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Your first statement is correct, except the point about plaster of paris being brittle, that bit is a fact.
Regarding Naz comments I totally agree with him, those pads had to be set before time. With the way handwraps are inspected today, it would be impossible to use wet wraps. Not only do they look wet, they are extremely messy to the touch and stain white everything they come in contact with. The only way to not notice that is to have your eyes closed
phew, that’s a relief – the theory I’ve sunk countless words into is apparently still somewhat defensible.
This has been fun. Are you a Professor? If so, where?
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Lol, it has been fun indeed. I’m not a professor yet, but I do work as a scientist doing research at a univeristy in Canada. I’m a biomedical engineer by training and and about to finish my PhD. My speciality is in rehabilitation medicine (for people with spinal cord injury) and neuroprosthetics.
well that’s certainly relevant to the general discussion around here.
You’re either up late or early – I’m the former. It’s 4:30 in San Antonio, Texas. I’m a law student for another month.
See you on another thread.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
you have a limited basis for that opinion. Is that a correct statement?
No, it’s not.
I’ve worked with plaster of paris. It’s not rocked science. If you’ve used it, you understand it and how it will act under varying circumstances accurately and intuitively. It’s pretty predictable stuff.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Mass is not related to volume, its related to weight. Along the same lines of my previous example, one kilogram of feathers has the same mass as one kilogram of lead, the difference is that the volume required to get that kilogram of feathers would be huge compared to the volume required to get one kilogram of lead.
so doesn’t it make sense that cotton hand wraps, coated or soaked in plaster of paris, would add a sort of greater proportional force than adding something more tangible to the hand – as in your brass knuckles example?
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
In terms of pure force yes, assuming first that acceleration can be kept constant even with the added mass, and two that the mass of the soaked hand wraps is greater than the mass of say the brass knuckles.
However, weapons like brass knuckles don’t really work by increasing the punching force generated, they work by two different mechanisms. One, by increasing the pressure at the time of impact since the same force is now applied on a very small surface.
The other one is that by being a hard material it will not deform on impact (as would happend to some extent if you only use your fist), thus less force would be lost on impact.
This is particularly true for team sports where only a small percentage of the players on each team gets tested
you need to look into that. Most american pro sports have mandatory tests that can happen at any time. MLB requires every single player be tested every single year, randomly. Suspensions are no joke either.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
For MLB, players are randomly tested once at the start of spring training and then once more per season (season being from start of spring training to the end of post season). If they get tested early on the season they could be off the hook for the rest of the season as only 600 players out of all players in MLB get tested a 3rd time. Once tested a 3d time then a player is for sure off the hook for the rest of the season.
Suspension for 1st offenders is 50 games which is less than 1/3 of the season (I’d classify this as a joke).
NFL players can be randomly tested up to 6 times during the off-season, however once the pre-season starts, they’ll be tested once, and then only 10 players per team are randomly selected to be tested each week, so a player could go an entire season without being tested as the chance of being tested is less than 20%. Suspensions for a failed test are 4 games (25% of a season, I say joke too)
NHL players can be randomly tested up to three times per season (only during the regular season). Suspensions are 20 games for a 1st offense (less than 25% of the seasson, I say joke too).
NBA players can be tested up to four times per season. Suspensions for 1st offenders are 10 games (less than 1/8 of the season, which is most definitely a joke).
Tennis has unlimited random testing throughout the year (whether in competition or not), and a first offense means a 2year suspension (definitely not a joke), and in my opinion the best system of all pro sports.
Soccer players can be randomly tested when not in competition, but once in competition the format is similat to the NFL, where only a number of players from each team are randomly selected to be tested. However if one player fails the test the entire team is tested. Soccer also does occasional blood tests in addition to urine. Failing a test means a 2yr suspension (although this can be reduced after a hearing if attenuating circumstances are demonstrated).
For boxing it varies from comission to comission, but at least for Nevada and Canada fighters get randomly tested once during the year and for certain on fight night. Suspensions usually are 6months (can be higher), so it’s a minimum of 50% of what could be conisdered a boxing season.
So overall I’d say in terms of suspensions boxing has the 3rd harshest penalties after tennis and soccer. In terms of actual testing program I’d say it is in the middle of the pack. Like you mentioned knowing they will be tested no matter what on fight night means fighters have to cycle to avoid detection. In sports like MLB or the NFL, or hockey post season, players can know for certain they won’t be tested or the chances of being tested are pretty small, so there isn’t even a need to cycle of whatever they take.
Again, I don’t think boxing has a good system, but I don’t think it has the worst either.
whoa
Your contention was this something like “very few team players get tested”. Well in reality every single MLB player gets tested, so you were way off base there.
Overall, I don’t have time to keep doing this dance with you, but let me just point this nugget of misdirection:
If they get tested early on the season they could be off the hook for the rest of the season as only 600 players out of all players in MLB get tested a 3rd time.
Well shit, only 600, there must be what – like 2200 MLB players? naa, 750.
And it’s random – all this shit is random. That was pretty misleading to say “only 600” – that’s 80%, pssshhh “only 600”.
Boxing suspensions are 6 months – how many times a year does a guy fight? About twice maybe three times – so a suspension either has no impact whatsoever or pushes his fight back 2 months. But that’s 3rd harshest compared to a non-guaranteed NFL contract that will have your ass cut as soon as the league calls? Yea right bud.
Show me a cite on your boxing info – I’m getting skeptical after looking at the rest of this post.
Tennis has a very friendly appeals process – look up Richard Gasquet.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
I did mention MLB testing is random, however once you get tested the second time the odds of getting tested a third time are much less. The pool of players tested by MLB includes those in the minors as well, not just the big leagues, so while I don’t know the exact number of players between minor and major leagues combined, I’d think it probably is somewhere around 2000. After being tested a third time that’s it since players can only be tested up to 3 times per year.
How much the boxing suspension affects a fighter depends on the fighter, in terms of pure performance I’d think a fighter away from the ring for six months suffers more than a football player away from the field for 4 games. What happens going forward with the NFL policy is anyone’s guess since there is no CBA right now so whatever changes are being considered would have to be agreed on by the players. As for how things were in the past no top player who’s been caught using PED’s has been released from his team as long as his production is still there after coming back from the suspension. Of the top of my head I can think of Castillo and Merriman from SD, the buffalo kid who got defensive rookie of the year even after being suspended, the williams’ from minesota, so please don’t say that somehow those who are caught cheating get penalized beyond their suspensions (including monetary costs of this) once they are back. Unfortunately in basically all sports as long as you can produce, most errors on and off the field will be forgiven and/or forgotten.
All sports have an appeal panel, so how they decide on each case will depend on each situation.
Here is a link that summarizes the programs for each league, plus links to the individual ones from some sports including boxing.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/03/11/steroid.testingpolicies/index.html
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf
http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_54346_original.PDF
http://boxing.nv.gov/Hot%20Topics/NACMemoReDrugTesting.pdf
http://es.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/medical/50/29/56/fifadocregulations_09.01.09_e.pdf
I’d think a fighter away from the ring for six months suffers more than a football player away from the field for 4 games.
He’s not away from the ring if he doesn’t want to be. A six month layoff between fights isn’t long at all. It’s completely normal, regular.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Of the top of my head I can think of Castillo and Merriman from SD, the buffalo kid who got defensive rookie of the year even after being suspended, the williams’ from minesota
Some of the best players at their respective positions in the league. They lost their pay for those games DURING the suspension. That’s millions of dollars. How can that possibly be less severe than a 6 month non-suspension from boxing? It doesn’t make sense.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
How severe a suspension is for a boxer would depend for the boxer. For a developing fighter who fights 5 – 6 times a year I’d say losing half the time to fight would be a big hit. For someone like Floyd who only fights about once a year it would be a non-issue like you say, for the majority of established fighters who fight 2 – 3 times a year (JMM, Pacquiao, the K-Bros, Cotto, Mosely) it would be at least losing half of your yearly fights. The problem with boxing is that it has no stablished schedule so sanctions can’t be made like in sports with regular seasons were suspensions can be set in games as opposed to calendar days. Economically speaking is comparing apples and oranges since the pay scales are vastly different since some rookies and journeymen in the NFL can have higher yearly salaries than what many top boxers make from all their fights in a single year (elite fighters like Pac and Floyd aside)
for the majority of established fighters who fight 2 – 3 times a year (JMM, Pacquiao, the K-Bros, Cotto, Mosely) it would be at least losing half of your yearly fights.
no. If you fight twice a year, you can pee positive tomorrow, take your 6 month suspension and sign a deal to fight in 6 months. That’s not a suspension. You don’t lose any money.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
average NFL career is something like 3 and 1/2 years. So they can have their “vastly higher salaries” but it’s a much shorter window.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
also, and here’s where shit gets murky: You can go elsewhere. The commissions are somewhat binding on each other – but if Pac tested positive here, he could go to the UK and fight Khan tomorrow and he loses nothing. There is no NFL Europe, there is no NBA Canada, those sports are monopolies, those guys are stuck. They lose tangible, real money and there is no alternative, so they better not fail a test.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
Take Saul Alvarez – he pops positive tomorrow in Nevada, no problem. He walks across the border and fights whenever he wants and takes virtually no financial punishment. In 6 months, Nevada welcomes him back with open arms. How is that an effective testing policy? And, in what other sport is that an option?
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
We agree that boxing does not have an effective policy and has loopholes like going to a different place which can be exploited if a fighters wants to do so. Having said that, from the recent cases of suspended fighters I recall (Chavez Jr, Guzman, Margarito), they all stayed put or are staying put for the duration of the suspension, since doing otherwise pretty much guarantees they’ll never fight in the USA again. Again how harsh (economically as well as in terms of performance) of a punishment 6months are would depend on each fighter’s situation.
Boxing is unique (to its detriment IMO) in that it has no central authority like all the other sports. Even international ones like tennis, soccer, or golf have a central governing body that sets the rules for players or leagues all over the world.
Boxing is unique (to its detriment IMO) in that it has no central authority like all the other sports.
Certainly agree with you there. Tennis players organized their own, I don’t about the others. I don’t think there’s much chance of boxers joining together, unfortunately.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
here’s Nevada’s State Commission Rules. I’m not finding any real defined procedures. They adopt by reference everything banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, but I don’t see where they define much of a clear procedure to catch anybody.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
I imagine Nevada’s sort of the leader of the pack on this, and if that’s all they got…..no bueno.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
In retrospect, my tone in the post titled “whoa” was inappropriate. I will try to work on that in the future.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
No worries, I’ve learned not to take anything personally. In my line of work you are expected to be reviewed, criticized, and hammered on basically everything thay you do and to then try to address the comments or critiques in the best way you can.
You didn't discuss this part:
is MLB blood or urine? Blood
Is NFL blood or urine? Blood once the lockout ends
Olympic Boxing? Blood
Urine tests are too easy to beat. Bottom line.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
MLB tests urine (check link above if you have doubts). Limited blood testing (testing only for HGH) has been used in the minors in a reduced scale with the intention of later expanding this to the entire MLB, but as things are right now urine is the main test.
Blood has been suggested for the NFL once the lockout ends, but there is no guarantee it will happen since it would have to be part of the CBA.
I was comparing only pro sports, Olympic testing for all sports is the gold standard for testing.
Agree that urine alone is not enough
HGH is a pretty damn significant performance enhancer, maybe the most important. That’s like saying you can only get arrested for a DUI if you’ve been drinking alcohol as opposed to doing drugs. Well, they’re certainly missing some, but that’s a pretty big net their casting.
"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees
This is a fact.
If you know B’Hops career that he always keeps himself in shape between fights. Never lets himself get out of shape. The fact that Pascal wants him to take the thest….is because he dosn’t want to fight B’Hop. Don’t forget Pascal was FORCED to make the Re-Match with B’Hop. There is nothhing in B’Hops career that shows that he ever been on drugs. NOTHING! Never put on a ton of weight. Never put on a huge amount of mulsce. Never faild a drug test.
by NJ Big T on Mar 29, 2011 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+2
and a Rec NJ.
Pascal is trying to work out how Hopkins kicked his arse in the first fight.
It’s nothing to do with drugs Jean,he’s just much better than you.
by Matt Mosley on Mar 29, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Or he’s trying to turn the tables on Bhop and give him a dose of his own mind games. And judging by Popkins’ reaction, it’s working.
if this was a real issue imo pascal wouldve negotiated testing before the signing of contracts. pascal may actually think bhop is dirty but this it seems to be more just head games and for publicity … either way i hope it amps pascal up and he brings some of that fire to the ring. cause it was def lacking in the 1st fight
Pascal
has lost the mental game already……And i’m pretty sure he’s gonna lose this rematch and his title.
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