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Fight Preview: Ricardo Mayorga Back in the Spotlight Against Miguel Cotto

Miguel Cotto and Ricardo Mayorga battle this Saturday on Showtime pay-per-view. (Photo by Tom Casino/Showtime)

There once was a time when an upcoming Ricardo Mayorga fight really excited yours truly. Mayorga's stunning knockout defeat of Vernon Forrest in 2003 was one of the things that turned me from a boxing fan to a boxing junkie. I was really captivated by his style and his presence. While Forrest was touted as arguably the world's best pound-for-pound and had just signed a huge deal with HBO, Mayorga was some Nicaraguan brawler, all but plucked off the streets to be fed to the rising superstar, some sort of cigarette-smoking sideshow. He would talk, he would make it exciting, and he would lose.

Things didn't quite work out that way. Forrest was a superior fighter in just about every single way, but Mayorga simply had his number. Vernon clearly wasn't quite mentally prepared for the firepower and machismo Mayorga was bringing to the table, and succumbed to his heavy-handed attack in the third round, when referee Marty Denkin waived off a pummeling. A dazed Forrest protested, but it was no use. Ricardo Mayorga was the new welterweight champion of the world, stunning everyone in and around boxing.

Their rematch six months later was a lot more competitive. Mayorga got out with another win, scoring a 12-round majority decision victory. But the reign of terror wouldn't last long. He was matched with Cory Spinks next, and after taking his trash talk to an all-time low by "promising to reunite Spinks with his dead mother," the St. Louis native took the crown with a majority decision win in Atlantic City.

Since that loss to Spinks, Mayorga has fallen back to reality. And reality is, he's an incredibly crude boxer with big power, a ferocious demeanor, a tasteless attitude when the cameras are rolling, and a knack for selling a fight. He beat Eric Mitchell in a bounce-back fight, then was decimated by Felix "Tito" Trinidad in October 2004. That fight is most famous for Mayorga dropping his hands and daring the powerful Trinidad to strike him, which he did, repeatedly. Mayorga laughed off the blows and taunted the Puerto Rican star, but eventually was beaten down in the eighth round.

He got back on the winning track and claimed an alphabet trinket at 154 pounds with a win over Italy's Michele Piccirillo, a dominant performance from Mayorga. That fight, and the belt he got from it, put Mayorga in line to serve as Oscar de la Hoya's comeback opponent in May 2006. The "Golden Boy" had been out of the ring following a September 2004 knockout loss to Bernard Hopkins in his failed bid to claim a legitimate championship at middleweight, and needed someone who could sell a fight, and also someone against whom Oscar would be favored. Mayorga fit the bill beautifully, and upped his trash talk game again, constantly questioning Oscar's sexuality (that old standby) and making remarks about his wife. Mayorga helped Oscar de la Hoya sell the fight wonderfully with his antics.

And then the bell rang, and Oscar thrashed Mayorga in six rounds. If there had been any remaining question about who Ricardo Mayorga was, Oscar made it very clear on that night. Mayorga is a superstar at the press conferences, the nastiest, meanest, foulest trash talker in the world. He can get people interested in seeing him fight, either to have him shut up, or to see him make good on his constant threats to kill his opponents and adopt their children and make love to their wives. Mayorga the character is a big deal.

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But bell-to-bell, Mayorga the fighter has long since been figured out. He lacks any semblance of defense, relies on his chin which has been dented to the point that it's no longer special, and hopes to wing enough incredibly wild power shots to eventually knock someone out. An overweight Mayorga fought an overweight Fernando Vargas in what really amounted to a great novelty fight in November 2007 after losing to Oscar, and won that one. He then was knocked out with one second remaining in his September 2008 fight against Shane Mosley, having been on the other side of one of Mosley's all-time worst performances, keeping Mayorga in the fight. After an aborted attempt to fight Din Thomas in mixed martial arts, Mayorga returned to boxing in December 2010, beating veteran Michael "The Night Stalker" Walker, who was 1-6-1 in his last eight fights.

Star-divide

Mayorga, though, is an attraction. When he decides to be serious for a short period about his career, he always finds a fight. And now he's found another one. At a beaten-up 37 years of age, Saturday night might be Ricardo Mayorga's last chance to truly cash in on his notoriety.

Miguel Cotto is no stranger to big fights himself, but at 30, there are questions about how much he has left. Like Mayorga, he's taken a lot of punishment in his career, and lost a couple of fights in brutal fashion. The first came in 2008, when he was stopped in the 11th round of a truly grueling and time capsule-worthy war with Antonio Margarito. And then in November 2009, a very game Cotto was outmaneuvered and outslugged by Manny Pacquiao, this time stopped in the 12th round.

In both losses, you could argue that Cotto gave up -- not that he "quit" or was some kind of punk about it, but that he reached a wall and decided that enough was enough. Against Margarito, he wilted and took knees until his corner threw in the towel. Against Pacquiao, though he kept trying to fight going backwards, he was in fact on his bicycle and by the time referee Kenny Bayless stepped in, he seemed like that was exactly what he wanted. In both fights, he had been bloodied and battered, and had given his all. There is no shame in either of Miguel Cotto's losses, but the signs of an overall fatigued fighter were evident.

Cotto has also not fought for nearly a year. In his last fight, the popular Cotto was the star attraction in Bob Arum bringing boxing back to Yankee Stadium for the first time in three decades. In the main event on HBO, Cotto stopped an injured and gutsy Yuri Foreman in the ninth round of his first fight at junior middleweight. Having done all he could at 140 and 147 pounds, the relatively diminutive Cotto took out a clearly bigger man, but one without much pop, or even much speed for that matter. Foreman, a respectable fighter, just didn't have the boxing skills of Cotto, and no amount of height advantage was going to help him overcome the challenge.

It was also Cotto's first fight under trainer Emanuel Steward, and the jury is still out on the somewhat odd pairing. There simply wasn't enough of a proper fight that night for us to gauge how the two were meshing, what with Foreman's bad knee injury. The job was done, and then Cotto passed up a chance to fight Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. late in the year due to shoulder surgery.

What we have, at the end of the day, is an undersized junior middleweight facing a mostly washed-up, one-dimensional street fighter. Mayorga used to be all fireworks. Nowadays, he's a lot of waiting and some fireworks. Cotto used to be a dominant body puncher. Nowadays, he seems to be a bit more tentative than he used to be, a bit less fearless. And a bit less vicious. The last time we saw the Miguel Cotto of old, it was because he was matched against Michael Jennings, who posed zero threat to him. Against Joshua Clottey and Pacquiao, Cotto was good but not quite himself. And the Foreman fight offered no answers because of its bizarre nature.

The size difference may be a huge factor. When this fight was signed, my instinct was that Cotto's vast superiority to Mayorga would make the fight all but a sham, a relatively easy payday so long as Cotto didn't do anything stupid like abandon defense or stick his chin out for the rugged Mayorga to blast. But seeing the two together, it's quite clear that Miguel Cotto is absolutely not a junior middleweight, and Ricardo Mayorga, though short for the weight, carries it a lot better than does Cotto. Miguel was a small welterweight, at 5'7" with 67-inch reach. For all the talk of Pacquiao being a Mighty Mouse marvel at 147 pounds, Cotto is really no bigger than the Filipino icon, and that looked to be the genuine case when they fought. Mayorga, at 5'9" with a 70" reach, is broad in the shoulders, sort of the proverbial brick shithouse at the weight. Cotto fought the 5'9" Shane Mosley and defeated him, and Mosley even has a 74" reach, but Mosley is leaner in his upper body than Mayorga.

Cotto has seen all stripes of fighter in his celebrated career. Pacquiao, Mosley, Margarito, Clottey, Malignaggi, Ricardo Torres, and many more. He has faced the best consistently in his career, and done a pretty good job, I'd say. But Mayorga presents a new challenge, even faded as he is. Cotto has always been tough, but has never had the sturdiest chin or the best ability to take punches, and when we have seen him truly hurt in recent fights, he has not responded particularly well.

The reality facing Miguel Cotto this Saturday night is that although Mayorga is no more or no less than what he is, and he's not hard to gameplan for or figure out, he cannot get hit with power shots. Mayorga still has very heavy hands and when one of his right hand bombs lands, the opponent feels it for sure. Cotto is at a physical strength disadvantage, and I'm guessing in a big way. If he can't hurt Mayorga, he could find himself doing all he can just to keep Ricardo off of him.

How does he hurt Mayorga? To the body. Hard, fast, repeated shots to the body. Cotto will have a huge advantage in speed and smarts. He's simply a better boxer than Mayorga, and that's not even close. Mayorga can almost surely only win this fight because of his power. Is Cotto going to be aware of that, or too aware of it? Again, he's been a bit tentative in recent fights. If he comes in too worried about Mayorga's power, he might miss his own offensive opportunities, and Ricardo presents a lot of them. And it could give him some deer in the headlights moments, and those could be lights out.

I am a huge fan of both of these guys as fighters. They have both been personal favorites of mine for years, and I find this fight really interesting as a style clash. It's going to come down to what version of Miguel Cotto shows up. If he's on his game, I think he beats Mayorga pretty handily, and if he does attack the body, could stop him in the mid-to-late rounds. Mayorga looks in shape, but you never know how hard he's had to work to get down to where he is now, and what toll that may have taken on him. When there's a 37-year-old, battle-scarred guy in front of you, I say go at him. But if Mayorga knocks out Miguel Cotto, it won't be an upset on the level of his first fight with Forrest. It will just be the cold, hard truth that Miguel Cotto is too small for the junior middleweight division. Cotto UD-12

* * * * *

Showtime will have three televised fights on the pay-per-view undercard, so let's take a brief look at those.

Lightweights, 12 Rounds: Miguel Vazquez (27-3, 12 KO) v. Leonardo Zappavigna (25-0, 17 KO)

A lot of Aussie fans are very excited about "Lenny Zappa," and it's hard to blame them. He fights with reckless abandon and goes for knockouts. He has spent the bulk of his career fighting in his home country against inferior competition, but the 23-year-old brawler has shown no fear of fighting abroad and making a name for himself. In his last fight, he stopped right hand bomber Ji Hoon Kim in 1:41, seven months after making his American TV debut against Fernando Angulo and struggling pretty mightily en route to a debated decision victory. I really can't get the Angulo fight out of my head when thinking of Zappa's long-term prospects, which means I don't think he's a future superstar or anything. But he could definitely have a career a lot like countryman Michael Katsidis. Vazquez is 24, but with a lot more useful experience and knowledge than his age might indicate. He beat Breidis Prescott on Friday Night Fights in July 2009, then beat Kim a year later to pick up an alphabet belt. In his last fight, he beat veteran fringe contender Ricardo Dominguez. Vazquez really doesn't have a lot of power, but he's a clever fighter and has overcome big punchers in two of his last three fights. Zappavigna has more action star upside, and he won't go away if he loses here. I don't like his chances in this fight, to be perfectly honest. I just think Vazquez is a more advanced, more developed fighter.

Junior Middleweights, 10 Rounds: Yuri Foreman (28-1, 8 KO) v. Pawel Wolak (28-1, 18 KO)

This one is going to depend on what kind of shape Foreman is in. He's been on the shelf since his June 2010 loss to Cotto, recovering from surgery on his right knee. He says he'd had the injury since he was 15 years old, so I guess you can chalk that up to bad luck that it cropped up on him bad given that he's had it half his life. Foreman is a decent fighter and seems like a great guy. But he's also a media creation. You can't get around the fact that someone with his level of talent would never have been the B-side headline of a fight at Yankee Stadium if it weren't for his backstory, which is interesting and all, but doesn't cover for his limitations in the ring. He has no power, isn't particularly quick, isn't really that good defensively, and doesn't really do much of anything well. He's intelligent and has been able to beat fighters who also weren't all that good. But on the world class level, I think he'll fall short every time. He's just not good enough to beat top-tier guys. Good news for him is that Wolak is not a top-tier guy, either, and Foreman has beaten guys on his level plenty already. There's not much that separates Wolak from your garden variety fringe contenders. He's rugged and can take some shots. His only loss came in 2008 to Ishe Smith, but his best wins are over C-minus type fighters. He likes to come forward and engage in a scrap, though, and that could be worrisome for Foreman, who has shown great discomfort when getting hit in past fights. All in all, I think you have to give Yuri plenty of credit for not fighting a patsy in his comeback. Even before Cotto, I would have considered Wolak a credible threat to Foreman, and with the rust on him, I think he's definitely got a shot. On paper, it seems like a bit of a risk for the promoters at Top Rank, but realistically I don't think Foreman's natural fanbase is very substantial, and they've probably gotten all the mileage they're going to get out of marketing the fighting rabbi. I get the feeling Foreman is going to have a horrible time winning this fight.

Heavyweights, 4 Rounds: Tom Zbikowski (1-0) v. Richard Bryant (1-2, 1 KO)

Ravens safety Tom Zbikowski is getting back in the ring for the first time since 2006, and facing -- for now, these fights change a lot -- a 35-year-old from London, Kentucky, who was stopped in 57 seconds in his last fight. This fight made the broadcast because Christy Martin pulled out of her bout, and I keep going back and forth on whether or not I consider it an upgrade to the broadcast. I do know for a scientific fact that Matt Korobov (13-0, 8 KO) is scheduled to fight on Saturday, and I feel it's a real shame that Top Rank isn't putting him on the bill instead, since he's an actual boxer who will still be fighting in a year. Even as cold as Korobov leaves me, I'd rather see him fight the shell of Michael Walker (19-6-2, 12 KO) than see this Zbikowski exhibition nonsense. It's nice that he has a passion for boxing and all that, but so do a lot of guys, and their first two pro fights aren't at Madison Square Garden and the MGM Grand. Just rubs me the wrong way, and I find it silly, since Tom Zbikowski is hardly some big star who is going to give them a bunch of $50 pay-per-view buys that they wouldn't have had without him on the TV portion of the show. But whatever.

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I’d like the chance to see Zappa, and the main event should be wild and give Cotto a nice KO win, but with an HBO card already on and Arum disrespecting fans with a crappy 4 round heavyweight fight I’ll be skipping out.

Anybody know if Showtime replays the main events the following week?

by BloodMeridian on Mar 9, 2011 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

Showtime is the worst when it comes to replaying events. HBO will replay their boxing events frequently, SHO will show them again a few days later on one of their non hidef channels. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a replay.

by cyke on Mar 9, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been wondering about this fight for quite a while.

And I think Cotto could be in for a horrible night, potentially. This is me working off the assumption that Mayorga is really interested in fighting and has trained his arse off – so quite a lofty assumption – but I don’t think Cotto can really hurt him (doesn’t throw to the body enough any more; hasn’t had great power since 140, really) and, if he can’t dissuade Mayorga, he might end up seeing those Margarito demons return. I expect Cotto to open up a whole load of offense on Mayorga early, because there are going to be a whole load of holes there to hit, but if Mayorga can keep plugging away, Cotto might begin to struggle with a bigger, heavier man coming at him all night. His heart’s been broken before, and Mayorga could just break it again.

Then again, I still don’t have the conviction to plump with Mayorga. Cotto by decision.

"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."

by Oli Goldstein on Mar 9, 2011 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Not $60 from me for this fight--

I YouTubed the Michael Walker fight, no way will this even be a fight, no matter what Mayorga does in training, and no matter if Cotto has the worst night of his life. Mayorga’s practically dead.

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNIqaZn5TE
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Oav_CQUTA

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 9, 2011 5:26 PM EST reply actions  

Despite Scott’s qualifications, I think Cotto cruises easy, winning every round and possibly knocking Mayorga out late. The rest of the card bores me. Pass.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 9, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

also by the way

I’m out again this weekend (my birthday this time) but will be setting up a fight night catch-all thread on Saturday for everybody.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 9, 2011 6:24 PM EST reply actions  

This is a great preview. I’m not going to pay money for this fight, but I’ll definitely be rooting for Cotto. I still cling to the hope that Cotto has a few things left in his tank… I’m not naive about it; I know he’s been in wars, he has his demons, and that he’s past his peak, but I have some wishful thinking. Cotto by late stoppage if Steward makes good on his word to get Cotto back to his roots.

Steve Addazio is gone! Thank you Temple!!!!
I will not buy any PPV promoted by Bob Arum.

by Apprentice on Mar 9, 2011 6:28 PM EST reply actions  

I think the whole "Margarito broke Cotto" thing is overplayed, and that he does indeed have some gas left.

So I’m with you, except I feel pretty confident about it.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 9, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree 100%

I think the legend of Margarito forever ruining Cotto is overblown, and even if it wasn’t, it would have no bearing on this fight. Cotto is still a top level guy, and Mayorga is now just a bum with a name. Cotto TKO7 in a lopsided fight.

(p.s. No, I would not utter that second-to-last sentence within 10,000 yards of Mayorga).

by The Boxer Rebellion on Mar 9, 2011 9:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think he does, too. I don’t think he’s what he was before that fight, but he’s still a top fighter and should be for a few more years.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 9, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

There sonly one way to find out about the ghost of Margarito

Rematch.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 9, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I would disagree with you on that. Margarito, after the scandal and the two life threatening beatings he got is a true ruined fighter. I think Cotto is just a guy who has been through wars and, while still maintaining a semblance of his prime self, he is worse for wear. Margarito is nothing like his prime self with his last three fights being disappointments.

by glatin1982 on Mar 10, 2011 12:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

+1

Cotto got dented, Marg got ruined. Cotto then had trainer hassles, which contributed to less than stellar performances in subsequent fights. Now he has Steward. Cotto’s still strong, and will last long enough to prove it.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 10, 2011 6:22 AM EST up reply actions  

and Manny completed them....both

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 9, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

For somebody who has spent a bit of time around boxing, you seem to take an inappropriate glee in declaring those fighters ‘ruined’.

by tkeithwhite on Mar 10, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."

by Chaos100 on Mar 10, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

"shot," "ruined," "done:--it is what it is. "Glee" is what you read into it; not me Glee is your word, not mine.

I saw blood dripping out of Cotto’s eyes and Margo’s orbital bone grotesquely broken. Then I saw Cotto against Foreman. For somebody who has spent almost 50 years around boxing, knows trainers, knows boxers, and knows boxing doctors like John Stiller, I’ll stand by my comments. Moreover, the post is not about ME. It’s about Cotto who is now on downward slope.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Cotto looked like he should have against Foreman (new trainer, new-ish weight) so I don’t understand your logic for Cotto being ruined. Also, and I mean no disrespect by this but make up your mind.
Downward slope ≠ ruined

by glatin1982 on Mar 10, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Cotto was fighting a guy in Foreman that he should have closed the ring off in two rounds and then iced him. Actually, IMO, Foreman

was stating to find some rhythm when he injured his knee, And insofar as Downward slope ≠ ruined, let’s just say that if he gets in there with someone tough and gets nailed, you will see him do a fast backup and that’s what I mean by the “Ruined” thing. Another way to say it is he will be forever haunted by the “Ghost of Margarito.” Sorry, but that equates to downward slope though you can attach a bit of speed to his trip down if you wish.

When Manny hurt, Cotto almost ran backwards and the ref had to look for a chance to stop the chase, You can cal that what you want, but I know what I saw and it was not pretty.

With respect.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

correction

When Manny hurt him, Cotto almost ran

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

This is how I see Cotto, too. He is ruined in so far as he will never be able to fight, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, the way he did before that fight. That DOES mean he is ruined to a certain extent.

Contrast that with an aging warrior like Ward or Gatti. Those guys didn’t have the physical skills they did at their best, but they could still commit and try to follow through with the commitment to fight, to “war”.

Cotto can’t do that, and that means he’s been ruined. All at the hands of plasterfists.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

and there are better examples of what I’m talking about than Ward and Gatti, I’m sure.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither Cotto nor Margarito

were ever the same after their match.

Cotto’s confidence and willingness to assert himself as a hallmark of his undefeated record prior to Margarito was forever changed by the half way mark in their brutal bout.
Once he was forced to peddle backward, he has rarely if ever manifested that aura of invincibilty so crucial to the very elite. He lost more that a fight that night.

Same with Margarito I’m afraid. He may still come forward with menacing tenacity but I think you can make a credible arguement that the damage he endured in achieving victory against Cotto diminished his punch resitance going forward. SSM did not meet the man Cotto faced. Nor did Manny. They met a brave and still dangerous combatant but not the world beater prior to Cotto.

Ruined may be harsh. Forever changed is not.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

But we don't need to be so politically correct about our terms.

I have never, ever used the terms stiff, bums, cans, extt when referring to a boxer. However, I don’t condemn others for for doing it. But “ruined” is hardly over-the-top. This is not a particularly “feel good” business. In fact the underbelly of boxing is pretty slime-ridden. No, methinks ruined, shot or done are quite appropriate.

by Boss Man on Mar 11, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah...someone finally mistook my eloquence for political correctness.

Ruined is alright by me.

Either way…..he’s not the same.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

you see this in other sports too – I remember when Troy Aikman came back from one of his last horrible concussions. He could no longer settle down in the pocket, he was rattled by the potential for a big hit. He’d taken one too many, and he was done competing, down battling against the nerves and instincts that say “GTFO of here, this isn’t worth it”.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

down (=) done

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know, maybe it has been too long but wasn’t Foreman doing the sideways shuffle to avoid Cotto when he got injured? I’ll agree that Cotto will never be who he was in the first 6 rounds of the Margarito fight but does that necessarily mean he is ruined? I think it changed who he is as a boxer but he still has the skill set. Didn’t he finish off Foreman with his trademark hook to the body?

by glatin1982 on Mar 10, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yuri Foreman, bro – can’t create any fear.

Mayorga can, but he’s too shitty of a boxer to make Cotto fold up.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Mayorga is defintlty done. Wachimg him agianst Vargas was painful.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

blegh

Irrelevant last point from me there. That fight should have been over before that.

by glatin1982 on Mar 10, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so. I think it just kind of happened. And yes, it was

his signature hook that finished matters, but he might has well ahve ben punching a big bag at that point thanks to the inept reffreree who shamlessly let that fight contine.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Cotto could do whatever he wanted v Foreman with no concern for his safety

He beat him but that says lmore about YF than Miquel.

I contend that if these men are further ruined, it’s what Manny did to them each individually after they beat each other up in their fight together.

Those losses may have ‘ruined’ them. Even Arum, their mutual promoter, said something to that effect. That Manny had destoyed his own stable

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Cotto ate 3 punches of note in the Foreman fight. I’d hardly say the tides were turning.

I also don’t see the him fighting backwards against Pac man, in a fight that became very apparent he was going to get KOd during if he stayed on the inside, proves anything. He got beat up by a great pressure fighter/cheater and one of the best all time.

In between he gutted out a performance against Clottey as he just poured blood out of his eye, and afterwards he had an easy night in his step up in weight and was cruising to a victory before the injury to Formeman even occurred. Is he the same fighter he was when he was before Margarito, probably not. Is he shot/ruined, you’ve got to say that is yet to be seen.

by tkeithwhite on Mar 10, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

“I also don’t see how”

by tkeithwhite on Mar 10, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. The Clottey fight in the late rounds exposed The Ghost of Margho

but Clottey could not capitalize. Had he launched a chase, he would have beaten the back pedaling Miguel. Some think he did anyway, though I thought Cotto won it thanks to that first round knockdown near the bell.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

he did have that horrendous cut though

and I think he did exceptionally well there to tough it out. If you can see the signs of him being , then that probably is the case, as you’ve seen enough to be able to pick it before it completely unravels in the ring for the boxer. I just hope that he can get pick apart Mayorga and then Margarito and then go out on a high, although boxing is so rarely like that.

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

being *ruined

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

He got beat up by a great pressure fighter/cheater and one of the best all time.

Huh?

In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."

by Chaos100 on Mar 11, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

let's not

I’m just not up for “Did Margarito cheat against Cotto?” Vol. 38482494

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 11, 2011 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, I thought he was referring to Manny Pacquaio.

In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."

by Chaos100 on Mar 11, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

no worries

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 11, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t hear anything resembling “glee”. He’s not reveling in their demise, he’s just stating as succinctly as possible – ie in 3 words.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I have always liked Cotto, but like most boxing fans, I am fickle. I do adnmit to

that, I alsoi was abig, big Margo fan. Man, the Cotto-Margo fight was a spine-tingler.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I loved Cotto – I still love the way he doesn’t really talk shit, and instead sells the fight on what he’s going to bring to it. All substance, no bullshit. That substance has been undermined, but I still have a lot of respect for the way he operates.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 10, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Mismatch. Cotto will destroy Ricardo.

by Boss Man on Mar 9, 2011 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

I almost always am in line with your read on fights SC but I really disagree on your Wolak call. To call Wolak limited is an understatement. He’s really tough and really exciting but he can’t box a lick. Yuri, unless the ring rust is eye opening, could outbox Wolak to a decision in his sleep.

by BabyBull1289 on Mar 10, 2011 12:18 AM EST reply actions  

Michael “The Night Stalker” Walker has been in too many tough fights. He has become a gatekeeper at best. He was once good, but stepped up too soon.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

Plaster wraps and a beat down by Mosley ruined Margarito.

by glatin1982 on Mar 10, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't buy that Cotto damaged Margo. I have my theory on why he got crunched by

SSM, however, and it does not involve Cotto. I think when they caught them with the wraps before the fight, it so totally discombobulated him, that he lost his focus and Mosley jumped on him with the rights and then kept on bashing him with them until he was crushed.

by Boss Man on Mar 10, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

on the SSM fight, I think that was absolutely it. Unfortunately for SSM….as I really hoped at the time it was start of a big comeback :(

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with both of you guys about that one. Margarito was seriously out of sorts that fight.

It’s all pretty clear in retrospect. Like BrianBrock, I hoped at the time it meant a resurgence for Shane, but it wasn’t to be.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I also again will note (as I love to do) that whatever else, there were several reports that Margarito was badly struggling to make 147 pounds for the Shane fight, too. I don’t think that can be ignored. He was really lethargic.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 11, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad my comment above about Maragrito's effect on combo sparked an interesting discussion.

I would just add a few points:

1) No one is arguing that the Margarito fight had no effect on Cotto. I would say it “set him back.”

2) His fight with Pacquiao would have ended up much the same even if the fight with Margarito had never happened. Pacquiao is just better.

3) “Ruined” fighters don’t beat guys like Clottey.

4) Cotto will fight in more huge fights in the future, winning most of them. I think he’s at least competitive against anyone currently at Jr. Middle, and if he boils back down to 147, I’d favor him (if only slightly in some cases) against anyone outside of Pac/Mayweather. This pretty much makes Cotto the same fighter he was before Margarito: one of boxing’s biggest stars, competitive or dominant against everyone but the absolute highest of the elite P4P. Not ruined, little change in status at all in fact.

If you call that ruined, or “damaged goods” or whatever, well, I guess we just have very different standards (and dictionaries).

5) Semantics matter.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 12:06 AM EST reply actions  

"Ruined" fighters don’t beat guys like Clottey.

Statement makes no sense to me. Because Clottey is such an aggressive, ruthless SOB? The guy doesn’t throw punches. He had Cotto for the pickings, Cotto was on his bike, going from one end of the ring to the other, back-wards, same way he was at the end of Margo. The “defense only” minded Clottey wouldn’t, couldn’t go for the throat. Fundamentally, he is not the same fighter he was before that fight. Watch him fight Shane Mosley and then watch him fight Josh Clottey – Not the same guy, his mind is not in the same place.

If you call that ruined, or "damaged goods" or whatever, well, I guess we just have very different standards (and dictionaries).

Maybe we different dictionaries. Or maybe he’s not the same fighter he was before fighting plasterfists.

I’d take Berto to beat him at welterweight. I’d also be very wary of some of those Junior welters on their way up – the power players like Maidana and Khan – I think that is the exact kind of match-up that can make a damaged guy like Cotto say “no mas”. Also, Cotto’s not a welter anymore.

5) Semantics matter.

Context matters too, Prof. I’m not saying he’s “damaged” like he can’t stand up straight or that he’s “ruined” like his finances are in disarray. The context is particular to pro boxing. It’s like “hurt”, “touched”, “legs are gone”. He’s damaged/ruined in that he cannot lay it on the line like he could before that fight. I saw it as bright as day in the Clottey fight. It’s not his fault, it just is what it is.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Clottey isn’t an aggressive ruthless SOB, but prior to his embarrassment by Pacquiao, he was pretty widely regarded as … ah hell, you know. Although Pac made him look bad like he has everyone else recently, I thought you would agree he is a worthwhile win.

Why does someone have to be a ruthless SOB to be a worthy foe? I don’t understand what you’re saying here—that only opponents with a tough-guy style like Margarito count after losing to Margarito? Why does losing to Margarito disqualify subsequent fights against equally respected guys with different fighting styles? And even if Cotto is more defensive minded now, why does that automatically mean he is not as good?

I agree his mind was not in the same place. But lots of past fighters have found their way toward overcoming tough losses, which is just what I thought Cotto did in the Clottey fight. Historical comparisons are often spurious, but lots of fighters were said to be ruined, damaged goods, or defeated in spirit. Until they weren’t anymore. Foreman, Hopkins, Toney in the mid-90s. Who else? Maybe I’ll start a thread about this topic.

I know you are not blaming Cotto as a warrior. I know it’s nothing personal, and I know you respect him. My argument is that many people are just plain wrong about their estimates about how good he is now versus how good he was prior to Margarito. As I said originally, I think the damage has been massively overstated. it’s become a kind of boxing truism that I disagree with. I think the arc of Cotto’s career is about where I would have expected it to be if you had asked me, say, one year before he fought Margarito.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 4:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Clottey is currently underrated.

Everyone (including me) was so enraged by paying $60 for an extended defensive-clinic borefest, they forget that Clottey is a hell of a boxer, and a very strong man. And, boring or not, and I hope I never pay for, or even see for free, another one like it, he’s the only man to walk out of the ring unharmed after 12 rnds vs MP. Was it a good fight? No. Was it a stupid fight on Clottey’s part? I don’t think so.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 11, 2011 6:09 AM EST up reply actions  

you don't think it Was a stupid fight?

I mean, he clearly was not even trying to win.

I’m sure he was harmed….he just wasn’t marked up, but he took a lot of punches and it was basically because he wanted to take as few clean ones as possible that he never took any risks.

As for him being a very strong guy….well he looks in great shape, but he doesn’t actually have that much power and he certainly isn’t a very brave guy. I never expected him to turn into some offensive dynamo against Pacquiao, but unless I remember very badly his punc output was far less than usual in that fight. Even when Cotto could barely see out that eye and Clottey could almost land his right at will, he wasn’t able to seize on him and close the show. For me, he just doesn’t have it. Those were his only two fights I saw all of, after hearing how he was so avoided/underrated etc etc…..and if he’s underrated, IMHO he deserves to be.

Ps nice work on uploading the links to Mayorga’s last fight…much happier about Cotto’s chances after seeing that :-)

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely cowardly, yes

for sure, but it did occur to me that he stayed largely unharmed.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 11, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Clottey can bang with the best. He already has.

I would argue that he is nobody’s first choice of opponent precisely because his is so tough. The fact that his name is not even mentioned by promoters trying to inflate their fighter’s image and record (Alvarez, JCC, etc) speaks volumes.

He lost to a machine gun the night Pacquiao beat him. Manny threw, if I recall, close to a thousand punches. Some men would simply quit like Oscar did. Others would take their beatings like men such as Cotto and Hatton.

Clotted has always been a reluctant warrior. It’s a shame because he has power and he has skills.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Clottey had him, Matt, that’s my point. Cotto’s win was less the product of Cotto and more what Clottey didn’t do. It was certainly a worthwhile win for Cotto, but it was one that he literally backed into.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I do agree. I felt Cotto won the fight, and that Clottey all but handed it to him on a silver platter.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Mar 11, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Foreman, Hopkins, Toney

None of those guys got savagely bludgeoned the way Cotto did against Margo. Foreman got tired and fell over, Hopkins lost a close competitive decision to RJJ and didn’t get the shit kicked out of him. Toney’s losses were to Montell and RJJ. Cotto got beaten into a pulp – I don’t know how those are comparable they way you’re trying to use them.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

My argument is that many people are just plain wrong about their estimates about how good he is now versus how good he was prior to Margarito.

I think he was a top level competitor, in addition to his boxing skills, before that fight. I think after that fight he can no longer lay it on the line in the same way – his ability to war was beaten out of him. That’s the difference between him and so many of the names you want to compare him to – Toney, Hop, Foreman – all had that left in them after their respective losses. I don’t think it’s really a commentary on the man, it’s a commentary on how he lost, and what was likely a filthy fight with Cheato.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

As I said originally, I think the damage has been massively overstated. it’s become a kind of boxing truism that I disagree with.

I think you should watch his fight with Shane and his fight with Clottey. There’s a fundamentally different competitor in there and it ain’t the cut and it ain’t Clottey’s nonexistent punches.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s a fundamentally different competitor

Yes, there was. He was more cautious. But that’s not the end of the world. Sometimes people overreact before the pendulum steadies. Your assumption is that he is incapable of working through it. I think that is mere speculation. Lots of fighters overcome adversity and adapt. Maybe he will always be a bit more cautious, but maybe this isn’t the game-changer for his career you assume it to be.

What should a fighter do who is looking to adapt and work through a problem? Get a new trainer. Cotto’s turn to Steward strikes me as a sign he was aware he needed a new perspective and was actively working toward it—a good for his career that you and others are overlooking.

I’m speculating too, but my guess is that Cotto is mentally tougher than you give him credit for. People do sometimes learn and grow from trauma. (I’ll resist the temptation to throw out that old chestnut from Nietzsche.)

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

a good for his career

meant to say “a good sign…”

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 11, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

It will be interesting to watch him going forward.

But I do believe that if you can take him deep, you can make him see ghosts.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

yea.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he’s at least competitive against anyone currently at Jr. Middle

Angulo? Kirkland? Dzinziruk? Shit I wouldn’t bet on him against any of those guys or Vanes Matis.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I do believe he would cringe upon being hit

and possibly break under the pressure of a few of those you’ve named.
Maybe not … but he would certainly be unconfortable.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

aw, I don't think its as bad as that

the first two named, probably not for me. Maybe Dzinziruk because a much better boxer than those two. Vanes, I think, is better at talking than he is at fighting.

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I would back Cotto to beat Vanes, and also Dzinziruk, but I think Kirk or Angulo probably beat him.

I think that’s what you just said, right? If so, I agree. :)

In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."

by Chaos100 on Mar 11, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

agree on Vanes only...lol

I think Dzinziruk’s dimensions and boxing ability could give him a hard time (although I give absolutely nothing for his chances against Martinez at 160, who spars with a better southpaw than Serhiy in Austin Trout)

Unlike you and lcollins1, I think right now Cotto would be a clear favorite over, and outbox Angulo or Kirkland. But then I like him a lot more than those two. Maybe in 18 months when some of the rough edges are gone Kirkland, but Angulo…..no.

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 11, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

changed my mind....had to come back here lol

I agree with you now on Kirkland and Angulo – I was beyond disappointed with last night’s fight. having watched Mayorga’s last fight off the link Boxanne posted slightly higher, I would have been disappointed if the fight was still going on in round 6 (even I would almost have fancied my chances against a slow shot arm puncher)and to see it go nearly al the way was really something. Margs at 154 could get messy for him….

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 13, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uncomfortable doesn't mean beaten

Cotto has found ways to win close fights.
I imagine he will continue to do so.

But Kirkland and Angulo are junior Margarito’s.
And any relative of Margarito is a nightmare for Miguel.

"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali

by pakinpower on Mar 11, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Angulo and Kirk would melt him. I think the other two would have competitive fights with him.

"You can't search me without probable cause Or that proper ammunition they call reasonable suspicion Listen while I bring friction to your whole jurisdiction" - Fugees

by lcollins1 on Mar 11, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I might favor Kirkland (Anglulo is so one-dimensional I’m not sure—Cotto might outbox him). I certainly think Miguel would be competitive against either, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he won. I have not seen enough of Dzinziruk to have a firm opinion, to be honest.

Regardless, Cotto is among to elite at 154, which supports my original point. Did you really think prior to Margarito that he would move up to 154 and just smash everyone? I stand by my original assertion that Cotto before Margarito and Cotto now would fair roughly the same both at 154 and 147.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I largely agree with your overall point,

I was just quibbling on small details…. :)

In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."

by Chaos100 on Mar 11, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

er, "Margarito's effect on Cotto"

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 4:56 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

re all five points, and an extra 1 for “set him back.” Soooo much more accurate. Clottey, imo, doesn’t get enough credit. The unspeakably boring fight with MP enraged everyone so, they forget he’s a hell of a boxer, and a very strong man.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 11, 2011 5:57 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry for double post/repeat.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Mar 11, 2011 6:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Prayers and deepest sympathies are extended to the people of Japan

by Boss Man on Mar 11, 2011 5:02 PM EST reply actions  

indeed

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on Mar 11, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)

by BrianBrock on Mar 12, 2011 5:36 AM EST up reply actions  

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