Why My Love for Boxing Is Wavering (Boss Man)
by Bad Left Hook on May 31, 2011 1:51 AM EDT
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PrintHe's living over there, but really he's dead....And nobody cares. Frankly, nobody ever will care. But I care.
--Denny Moyer's wife Sandy Moyer
I was about to write a time tunnel piece on a prime Hagler vs. a prime Hopkins, but then I reviewed the recently released documentary "After the Last Round" and that film just stopped me cold. It also scared the hell out of me, particularly juxtaposed against the work and research I have been doing on my series, "The Darker Side of Boxing," because it seemed to validate every suspicion I have.
In the film, the sight of the Moyer brothers, Denny and Phil, walking down a path holding each other's hands and both wearing plastic helmets to protect them from a fall was both poignant and horrific. The sight of their 90 year old father Harry Moyer feeding them was indelible.
Denny, the first ever world light-middleweight champion, has since passed away in a nursing home in his home city of Portland, Oregon, on June 30. He was 70 and had suffered pugilistica dementia for many years. Phil, totally incapacitated with the malady, remains in the same nursing home enshrouded in a fog of living death.
Amazingly, both brothers held victories over Sugar Ray Robinson. I watched both fight on television on many a Friday night back in the day. During 1960, Denny Moyer went 4-2 while fighting the likes of Pat Lowry, Tony DeMarco, Emile Griffith (twice), Benny "Kid "‘Paret, and Jorge Fernandez. Later I recall watching a young and hungry Vito Antuafermo (24-1) brutalize an aging Denny (95-34-10) over 10 savage rounds in the Garden in 1974. I also recall how Phil Moyer beat a guy with an 88-30-10 record in only his 5th pro fight.
On top of this, watching Roy Jones recently be rendered unconscious (once again) by someone he would have knocked out in his prime was personally painful. Ironically, the film showed Jones as an example of someone dishing out brutal punishment.
Finally, having recently written a lengthy article titled "Remembering Greg Page" for a boxing magazine, my pendulum of love and hate is once again moving and the move is one that is challenging my love for boxing. This has happened before and the passion always returned, but right now it's just not there. In fact, if boxing were banned tomorrow, I now ask myself, could I live with it? For the first time, I hesitate with an answer.
Some call boxing a barbaric sport where the sole objective is to concuss an opponent without killing him. Others refer to it as a "noble art"-a sweet science which is a beautiful sight to behold. As an unabashed aficionado, I always try to keep these two realities in proper perspective. However, one thing I no longer will accept is the manner in which most newscasters or boxing writers continue to totally ignore the long term damage that boxing can do to both the participants and their families. Oh, I get why the establishment of booking agents, promoters, managers, and trainers ignore this, not to mention the self-serving parasitic alphabet soup governing bodies.
As a minimum, we need to write about the dangers implications of brain injuries. Anyone who has had an issue with a brain injury (there is no such thing as a minor one) should NEVER be allowed back in the ring. The Las Vegas Commission gets this. Joe Mesi finally got it. Edwin Valero did not, but that became academic. In the aforementioned documentary, they showed how one kid, a great all-around athlete named Tony Bruno, was given an aspirin by a friend after he complained of headaches after a tough sparing match with his best buddy. He then sparred some more the next day. He is now seriously disabled but is managing to cope. Watching this segment was enough to make a grown person cry. The book, Dying to Fight: the Tony Bruno Story details Tony's valiant effort to cope.
More than likely, I will revert to the following quote that always grounds me, but right now I need to rethink things. And if that's what the documentary was supposed to do, it succeeded.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes up short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.......
--Teddy Roosevelt
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This is a great post,
my friend—very honest and well written.
When we stop questioning ourselves (and the things we love) we are truly lost.
Wherever anyone stands on the issue, it shouldn’t be a stand easily or cheaply arrived at, IMO.
Agreed 100% Don.
How are you mate? Hope things are cool with you? How’s life on the porch watching those painted hookers?
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on May 31, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Sir Jack!
Disaster—
The main tattoo hooker has been evicted! But I will be on the porch for late breakfast after gym ASAP.
This has been a brutal winter Sir Jack—people dying left and right, prov feeling his age, etc.—
But I am ready for a comeback, in fact have started the process, whether my sorry-ass nation shall also come back or not.
No teaching this summer so I can get some work done, sleep a lot, and put out applications for replacement tattoo hookers.
How are things with you? Is it you nephew who’s fighting? If you can, send on info when he has a match, okay?
Good to hear from you.
by Don From Prov on Jun 1, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
LMAO.
Glad you made it through the blizzards ol’ timer.
Work has been crazy of late so I haven’t been home that much but I’m back for a while now , looking forward to a canoeing trip next weekend (not white water shit you understand – big old Last of the Mohicans type). I’ll be drunk most of the time I suspect and so will the other twenty odd. Life jackets will be compulsory is my guess.
Things are great over here – Degale got beat by Groves , Clev. is looking quite good and Haye will soon KO Wlad.
You could say things are brightening up.
It’s my step-son who’s fighting ( but a recent first baby has put his actual fighting on hold for a month or three).
He’s been getting lots of BJJ training in though and is getting the ears to show for it.
I’ll mail you a link when he fights next (but his Mrs is giving him some grief about fighting now he’s a dad I suspect hehe).
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 1, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sir Jack,
remaining drunk while canoeing is a very good idea, especially if your going to fall in the river on a regular basis—
and of course the life-jackets help their too. But falling into a river for the Aussies??—
They have a whole other problem beside drowning: giant crocs!!
Please do send me the link when your step-son fights again. And please keep an eye on Ted when he’s at ESB.
Poor old guy has never won a bet from me and has fatally decided to wager that he can get me to post on ESB—
His plan? Buddy up to Old Yank and try to get the Yank to insult me so that I lose my temper, etc.
Even an old whore like Ted can’t really stomach being Yank’s pal, but he’s going to pretend.
So step in for me and promote my (dubious) good name, okay? Enjoy your time off. You are a good man, Sir Jack.
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice one Don mate.
Same back to you.
I’ll only post on ESB on Ted’s stuff , it’s not my preferred stomping ground but I will en devour to ensure your good name is not dragged into too much mud.
I may even post as “Friend of the Don” if things get tasty,which they will – it’s ESB – land of desperate and disillusioned .
Some on there even think Wlad will beat Haye … I rest my case.
Nice to catch up.
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 3, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
As you can see below, Sir Jack
Mr.
Sares is a bit out of control. Consistent losing will do that to some—
He didn’t think I had the guts?
Anyway, I like “Friend of Don” Sir Jack but be careful in the land of the desperate and disillusioned (lmfao!)
The rabid Mr. Ted might turn on you as well. This could well be a revelation in the making.
But it’s all smiles after the blood, especially when I am eating yet one more meal that Boss Man will owe me :)
by Don From Prov on Jun 4, 2011 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Gee, didn't think you had the guts. Now buckle up because at the signal, I
shall unleash hell!!!!!!!!
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I put every thing I had into this one. Thanks, Don.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Good post
I have to say this post, combined with recent events, has me questioning not just my enjoyment of the sport of boxing, but that of hockey and (American) football as well. The Roy Jones Jr. knockout was plenty terrifying, but boxing is certainly not the only sport that threatens brain health for its athletes.
As a NY Rangers fan, I was taken aback a few weeks ago by the news of enforcer Derek Boogaard’s sudden death at the age of 28. As reports following his death noted, the poor guy was legitimately suffering from severe post-concussion symptoms stemming from his on-ice fight with Matt Carkner back in December. From either punches to the head, having his large body driven into the ice by another large man, or a combination of both, Derek never played another shift:
In the months that followed, Boogaard wore sunglasses nearly everywhere because of light-sensitivity issues. He would become ill in the back of cars, his world spinning. Devin Wilson, a former junior hockey teammate who was his roommate in New York, said Boogaard would hold his head in agony during those dizzy spells and ask the cab driver to stop. Then they’d walk dozens of blocks, sometimes uphill, to reach his apartment on Manhattan’s West Side. “It was a pain in the ass, but I knew it was serious,” Wilson said. “When he got back to the apartment, he’d immediately get his comfortable Under Armour gear on, grab a blanket, go straight to the couch and just lie down. All the lights would have to be out.”
Boogaard, as it turned out, had developed an addiction to painkillers of some sort that started with a shoulder surgery a while back, and passed away due to a tragic combination of alcohol and oxycodone that was ruled an accidental overdose. To what extent his concussion misery played in his continued susceptibility to drug abuse is unknown, but I continue to find the whole episode to be troubling, regardless of whether there was a correlation or not.
This episode, combined with the continued absence of Sidney Crosby from his concussion symptoms, and the various issues regarding ex-NFL players has me questioning not just boxing, but hockey and football as well. The truth of the matter is, I can’t claim to be some moral crusader either- I read the Malcolm Gladwell piece on concussions in football well over a year ago and it sure as shit hasn’t stopped me from watching on Saturdays and Sundays in the fall. And Roy Jones getting blasted didn’t stop me from watching B-Hop make history just a few hours later. But it all has me thinking…
I guess if there’s a point in this long, meandering post of mine, it is this: your not alone in your introspection, Boss Man. I intend, for better or for worse, to watch “After the Last Round,” and what may come of it I do not know. But many thanks to you for starting a worthwhile dialogue on this site.
Thanks to you as well Omar for reading the post. This was in part a bit of getting this message ouit there.
The reception on ESB has been quite gratifying and intropseptive. A far cry from the usual PEDS stuff and Pac vs. Mayweather nonsense.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Ted, I checked the website for the documentary and there are no showings posted. Though apparently for a donation of $15 or more you can get a copy of the DVD from the Retired Boxers Foundation, in case anyone else wanted to know
This sure stopped me cold. I too need to rethink things from time to time because I too have your guilty pleasure.
I'd like to think that cases like Ali, the Moyer brothers, and so on and so forth would have begun diminishing nowadays.
Of course, we’re currently all witnessing the terrible demise of Roy Jones Jr and Antwun Echols, to name but a few. This is, in essence, the fatal paradox of boxing: everyone says they’ll quit at the right time, but so few do; then when they should no longer be allowed to fight, no one’s there stopping them. I do think things have improved, but only in certain places – here in the UK, for example, Danny Williams can no longer get a license to box because the BBBofC is aware he’s shot and, frankly, a danger to himself; however, that judgement is just rendered piecemeal and insubstantial when he can then just go off to Latvia and Germany and fight there.
Again, I think a lot of these problems stem from boxing’s fundamental and widely discussed core issue – namely, that there’s no unilateral board of control overseeing things; that the good national boards of control like the BBBofC are subsequently counteracted by the bad ones; and, finally, that there’s no board of control that claims to be unilateral (ie WBC or WBA) that isn’t just aiming to make a buck. The people who control boxing – the TV networks – don’t care enough, however, to demand reform, and nor do the vast majority of commissions. How the NSAC could have campaigned against more stringent drug testing controls recently is totally beyond me. I mean, I understand it costs them money, but hey: these guys’ jobs are to protect the fighters, and if they aren’t doing that to the best of their abilities, then we’ve got a serious problem.
Change has to come from above, but with such a limited fanbase, I don’t really see how boxing can be pushed into resolving its deepest problems. Whereas with soccer right now, there is a huge push from the media, sponsors and much of the European football public to oust Sepp Blatter and the rest of a flagrantly corrupt FIFA, there simply isn’t the same scope of media or fanbase to do the same in boxing. And, hey, we’re overthrowing FIFA because certain individuals wanted some cash on the side. The Russian Boxing commission just allowed an unstable, old and shot Roy Jones to risk his life in the ring. Which is more wrong?
Sorry this became such an incoherent rant, but cheers for a thought-provoking piece, Ted.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
It’s not just the lack of effective international oversight. It’s fans themselves, always willing to trash a guy that quits on his stool (who knows what he’s physically enduring), boo referees for early stoppages, and moan that Fighter A could have hurt Fighter B more if they’d been willing to work a little harder at it. The blood lust of large portions of the public, and an apparent inability to realize how much damage is being done, have as much to do with injuries from the sport as anything else does. And that’s why the system is tolerated as is. It would change if fans really wanted it to. They don’t. There’s no real noise being made. A lot of the people watching it like the whole rise and fall (hard) thing. Not here, and not me, but most everyplace else.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
by BoxAnne on May 31, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s no real noise being made
Yes. That’s why I have embarked on my series and on this piece. At least I can say that I have done my bit for what I believe in—and if I can get any others to do the same, that will be icing on the cake for me. This has become more of an education process—or maybe an awareness process—than anything else.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I've been guilty of the first and third reactions
on your post, Boxanne.
The contradiction that I’d ask you about, is "how, in a sport whose goal is to render an opponent incapacitated—
or at the least, to effectively hit them for ten or twelve rounds—is it even possible to evolve without bloodlust?"
That’s like paying for a hooker and not getting some version of a “happy ending”: It’s the nature of the transaction.
by Don From Prov on Jun 1, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Not incoherent, Mr. Gold--
thoughtful and intelligent, a +1.
A problem for boxing will always be that It’s essence promises a pretty good shot at a bad ending.
I keep saying that the sport is like religion, one either believes or doesn’t.
by Don From Prov on Jun 1, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
it depends
on where you’re watching it—hitting not being hit is a less deadly standard used, it seems to me, more often in Europe. I could be wrong about that. TKOs called in time suit me fine—for me, they’re the best ending. Can I tolerate a “good clean KO”? Is there such a thing? If they get up before 10 and the fight is stopped, yes. I really don’t like seeing them sent back in, and you do see it, after they’ve been buzzed or seriously KD’d. I’m never really crazy about seeing them breathing convulsively on the canvas. Going the distance is OK with me. More fight, actually.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I really don’t like seeing them sent back in, and you do see it, after they’ve been buzzed or seriously
Indeed, but it doesn’t happen as much anymore because the referees are much better at stopping fights based on what they learn at their seminars.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
But I'm not sure Smoger attends those seminars.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Haha, Smoger has definitely never attended any of those seminars.
(Not sure if I should really be laughing at that!)
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 1, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Have a friend whose son is small but tough--
And my buddy is very proud of his son when he gets his bell rung in a football game
And then just goes back at the opposing players: Not a good idea, and not a well coached league
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't sound good.
I was actually forced to stop playing rugby just after my 17th birthday because of the damage I took to my spine and neck: one game, my shoulder popped out, and my coach just slipped it back in and let me play on; another, I suffered two partial slipped disks in my neck, and played on as well. Two stupid moves on my part, and two wholly irresponsible oversights by my coach; I’m now troubled regularly with neck and shoulder pain.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 2, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll never forgewt my HS football coach inject my left ankle with some novacaine back
in 1954. “Tough it out young man.” F—king maniac. But that was common back then. Hell, I didn’t even wear a face guard until 1952. I have a photo of me closing in on some poor sap and the othe guys in the photo had no face guards. Not only was I the best looking back then, I also was the smartest.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Speaking of Photos, I caught 4 bears in my front yard yesterday. If anyone wants to see them, let me kn0w.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Damn… At school?! That’s ludicrous. I was always coaxed into playing with injuries, but never injected with anything. Damn.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 2, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The coaches are the most direct culprits, IMO
Oli: You were a young man and trying to prove yourself—
Your coach was the adult and should have been looking out for you.
That you are still troubled by the injuries sucks.
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, he was always a bit of a moron to be honest. Coached us first when we were 14, 15, and we all thought he was brilliant, but as we all got older and less naive, we began to realise that he actually didn’t know that much about rugby, and that allowing us to play with injuries was just grossly irresponsible. Still, I got out in good enough time – could be in a lot worse shape now, I guess. I am a lot more susceptible to injury as a result (two broken wrists in the last 11 months!) but I’ll live, eh!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 2, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
They were broadcasting the “Varsity Blues” movie on tv this past week over here, what you guys describe sounds just like some of the scenes they showed in the movie.
Well, I no longer wear the face mask while golfing.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I messed up my shoulder just playing baseball when I was a kid — not even a contact sport, and it was because coaches didn’t care to monitor how often you were throwing. I can’t throw a ball more than 10-15 times now without pretty serious pain, and it’s been that way for about 13 years now. I remember telling them my arm was dead one game and they ran me out there anyway, and it just never was the same after that. It’s mostly fine day-to-day, but anything strenuous and it flares up bad.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I fell out of a helicopter . That wasn’t good.
I know what you mean about shoulders though.
I messed up my rota cuff a few years back benchin’ too heavy and I have trouble throwing a ball or a right hand to this day.The worst thing is though that I can’t scratch my back with my right hand .
I don’t think it’ll ever go away.
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 3, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Christ, get a hard stick and chew on it!
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
LMAO Chopper Daniels
" Its old blokes whinge about my injuries day" I fell off a balcony pissed out of my brain at a party when I was 19 . I shattered my ankle and a bone in my foot but I was that maggoted I didnt get it looked at for 2 days . The bastard is an uber reliable weather forecasting device now .Glad to see youre wellSir JD , hope the young bloke is kicking a few goals.
Great to hear you JC
Glad to see you didn’t get swept away by the floods mate.
Jesus , that was some gig eh?
I see they’ve just signed Katsidis / Earl 2 for Oz. Are you planning on going ?
Should be a good ‘un even though they’ve both aged quite a bit in the last four years.
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 5, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Common Stuff Scott
I’d imagine pitching is the same as bowling fast at cricket. It shouldnt be done until the kid is at least 16 years old. I literally gave up playing cricket at age 16 as my back was rat shit. Cheers Mate
Was it from throwing curves?
I’m pretty certain that kids shouldn’t be allowed to throw breaking shit until they’re 15. Not a better way to ruin a young arm.
Yeah I think it played a big role. I had a wicked curveball. Apparently too wicked. And I don’t think they should be allowed until 16 or 17, really. Pitching at all is a violent, unnatural motion.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Fernando Montiel sent back in against Nonito’s a pretty good recent example, but yep, it is something which doesn’t happen as much nowadays.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 1, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Katsidis' last fight against Guerreo..
That was pinful to watch. I’d have been happy to see the ref step in waaay before the end. There’s a guy too brave for his own health. To me he is the perfect example of a boxer taking too much on the chin.
Yeah Phil and didn’t Guerreo look fooking huge.
Kat’s was very brave as usual and his corner should have maybe thought about pulling him but I think that the(not) knockdown early (1st/ 2nd?) gave them hope Kat’s would catch him again.
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 8, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It's like winning at Black JACK. yOU DO WELL THE FIRST TIME AND THEN YOU
COME BACK AND GET SAVAGED
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Thanks, Don.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 1, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
arrgh
Again, I think a lot of these problems stem from boxing’s fundamental and widely discussed core issue – namely, that there’s no unilateral board of control overseeing things;
that’s a big part of it indeed
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
It’s definitely something I think about seriously time to time, and I don’t think it ever strays too far from my thoughts. I was legitimately scared when Jones crumbled against Lebedev; I was sitting along watching the fight, and out loud said to myself, or to the world around me or whatever, “Oh no.” The fact that Jones had spent half the fight looking “sleepy-eyed” was already frightening me, too. It wasn’t just the knockout. Most of that damn fight was a nervous watch.
It’s something you can’t avoid if you watch boxing seriously, and frequently, and with any sort of passion.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
...important job of getting us thinking about it.
Look at Holyfield now, where is he going to be ten years down the line?
Someone has to act fast on this matter.
(sorry for the error in typing this post, by the way).
You are forgiven.
Cos your so nice :-)
Seriously though, it is very good and very different from the "Floyd Takes A Dump! " , “Manny Sings A Song !” boxing articles across the media.
Disarm you with a smile ....
by Sir Jack Daniels on May 31, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like 'gutter press' stuff to me Sir Jack!
Ted could teach theses other so called ‘writers’ a lesson or two methinks. It’d be to our expense though, in a waste of time kind of way… if you know what I mean.
Sadly, I think this is just part of Boxing. For something to be done, the whole Sport needs an overhaul. And lets be honest, it will not happen in the forseeable future.
Great writing though. Really does hit hard
While It's sad to watch the demise of a great fighter
Like say Roy Jones or a Matthew Saad Muhammed spare a thought for the “opponent” type fighter. These blokes that have records like 10 – 70 and take fights on 3 days notice . I find the plethora of mismatches in boxing more distasteful than the plight of the Holyfields and Joneses of the world. Its my biggest beef with the sport. Some of the fights that happen in Eastern Europe and in countries like Thailand are disgusting. Cheers All.
+1
Fighters who have lost as many as they’ve won should not be permitted to fight. Most of them didn’t lose standing up every time. You’re right, the Jones, Mosely, Holyfield contingent are sad to watch, but they are the least of it, really.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Problem with that attitude is that there are plenty of those guys with horrible records who know what they’re doing in there – they know how to make things awkward, and they know how to avoid getting whacked around the ring. Their job is to provide some form of resistance, but not too much resistance, and some guys are pretty good at it. Of course, at the other end of the spectrum, there are journeymen who just get beaten from pillar to post each fight. It is so difficult to measure, but I think leo solis’ MRI scan suggestion was a pretty good one the other day.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 1, 2011 3:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The problem is that records can be very deceptive. Take Zack Page or Marian Wilson. Or
those 7 or 8 blokes in the UK who have lost well over 100 fights each. They are there for areaso but seldom take a real beating. But a guy like Echols or Ruben Williams is not getting beat up each time out.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’ve tried the same rally cry a couple times before, no one ever much listens to it, because no one knows who those guys are.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 31, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
There are too few of us who do know and even fewer who care. I live the way the BWAA
totally ignores this subject. Erragghhh. :twisted:
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Still fighting
(randomly selected out of boxrec data. didn’t do Asia, Africa, or south of Mexico at all):
Atilla Kiss last fight 4/22/11 record 10-60(12)-3-1
Billie Smith last fight 5/20/11 record 12-93(8)-2-0
Daniel Thorpe last fight 2/25/11 record 23-113(26)-3-9
Carl Allen last fight 5/6/11 record 18-95(15)-7-5
Vladimir Fecko, last fight 5/27/11 record 2-45(23)-1-0
Phillip Hammac age 32 last fight 2/19/11 record 4-25(13)-0-2
Dan Sheehan, age 37, last fight 12/2/10 record 11-39(9)-0-5
etc., etc. and on, and on.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
There are much worse ones (Reggie Strickland 66-276(25)-17-14, Donnie Penelton 13-166(33)-6-5), but they have stopped fighting, probably because they have stopped standing up. Thirty-three KOs. 33.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Gabor Balogh-2-76-5
But again, most of these guys with the truly terrible record arre designated losers if you will and are in there to take young foghters the diatance. That’s what Professor Buckley did in the UK. That’s not a part of the Dark Side in my view.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Designated losers is one thing, as Oligold at 1:33 am edst points out—but this aren’t just about losses, this is about # of KOs on those records. KOs are KOs. And if theyre losing that many, you know a there’s going to be a lot of KOs. The MRI thing sounds much better, but then the objection is expense—maybe a mix: More than a set number (a low number, say 2) of losses and /or KOs, no fighting without the MRI, where the numbers are the trigger for greater alertness to trouble. And with the understanding that no system will be fail-safe.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
not just 2 losses, more losses than wins and/or more than 2 KOs, any kind of KO.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
The UK guys are a seperate breed and I wrote volumes about them in .
Reeling in the Years. I believ all 64 of James Holly’s losses were by KO, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts he was never really KO.d. Same with the Midwestern Barnstormers. These guys had a great propensity for falling down as soon as they saw incoming. It was what it was and what it was was not genuine so thier records are totally misleading. But guys like Echols and Rubin Williams are taking brutal beating out there and that is real.
My point: Never judge a fighter by his record unless tou totally disect it.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Touchy Issue
This becomes a tough issue in some places because this is how some people put food on the table. Effectively sacrificing one’s well-being for the well-being of the family. Then who am I to say what is right and what is wrong in this situation. Of course this is an extreme, but it needs to be kept in mind so that any regulations do not go ‘too far.’
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
you’re right—that’s the trouble. But, at a certain point—people driving buses for a living get taken off the road in certain circumstances, no one is expected/rrequired to routinely risk death and brain injury just to make a living—when we find such abusive jobs as chimney sweep, sooner or later something’s done—or black lung for miners, safety rules get made and enforced that reduce or eliminate the risk. “You can’t fight anymore if you lose more than you win” doesn’t seem real restrictive to me. It’s a sign, a sign any damn fool should be able to respect. I came across those numbers above sort of accidently, couldn’t remember enough about Zbik to make my Pick and started checking records and guickie video reviews and as always noticed the appalling records especially down at the bottom of guy’s lists. In view of the conversation, I started randomly going deeper—a lot of them do quit when they’ve started losing, say, 4, 5, 6 fights in a row. Others, horribly, don’t. They need to be stopped, just as drunken drivers are stopped.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
“You can’t fight anymore if you lose more than you win” not only doesn’t seem real strict, it seems borderline still irresponsible. But it’s basic—anyone can understand it, and the obvious wisdom of at least that much restraint is hard even for the most obstinate to deny.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
You can take just as much damage in a win as a loss
It assumes falsely that a victory can somehow minimize the damage one took in a boxing match. The number of boxers who suffer long term damage would be reduced, but that would happen also as simply a function of there being less boxers around once they reach that threshold of more losses then victories. I think the MRI proposal is the more all encompassing idea.
Also
Guys get hit in sparring. Hell, from what I’ve read, Ali used to let sparring partners beat the hell out of him at times because he thought it “toughened him up.” Even with the late career beatings from Holmes and Berbick, and the wars with Frazier, Norton et al., its quite possible that taking unnecessary punishment in sparring didn’t help matters for Ali
Good points, Waldo--
Regulations going “far enough” would = something they might call boxing but wouldn’t really be boxing.
by Don From Prov on Jun 1, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Good on you Ted for bringing up a subject that many people would rather brush under the carpet in a “who cares, they are retired now”, kind of selfish way.
What we were talking about in the Roy Jones thread had me thinking 9as i have done before) about why i am a fan of this sport and, if the fighters are guilty for causing the damage, are we not also partly guilty for paying to watch and finance the sport?
I’m not making a statement there, i’m asking a question, because i’m really not sure. As has been sad before no one makes them do this and they are not gonna stop doing it just because i stop watching.
Two of the most important things for me is that fights, and fighters, don’t go on too long and don’t take unnecessary punishment. This is obviously where most of the damage is caused. I’m one of those people who would rather see a fight stopped a bit too soon than too late.
Some of the stuff you rarely hear about is what’s really scary too, like young amateurs suffering brain damage just because their skulls might be a fraction of a mm thinner than the next guys, or their brains can’t adjust to trauma and they can’t quite take the shots like others can.
You alluded to this with the guy who took the aspirin but i have heard of similar cases before too.
What really annoys me sometimes is when you get these fat, out of shape, non sporting writers who like to rub their hands with glee while talking about “dying to see so-and-so bash each others brains in”. Shit like that is terribly insensitve and i can’t stand it.
I’m sure i have heard the likes of Dan Rafael write stuff like that before.
This is real, Dan, not pro f**king wrestling!
I don’t care what anyone says, you have to have had some form of experience in boxing, even at a lower level to know what i feels like to take flush shots and to give them also.
It’s different to a streetfight because boxers know where to hit you to get the most devastating effect.
SRR talked about “aiming for the temple and the heart”. That’s where he could do the most damage….Brutal really.
I love boxing for the sweet science more than anything but it is also barbaric and i hate when idiots mock fighters for being brutally KO’d, etc….More respect should be shown to these warriors who literally put their lives on the line to entertain us.
I think i’m right in saying that, though you have looked into more than i have, i see pretty much eye to eye with you on this subject, Boss Man.
The general response to Zab Judah’s “chicken dance” has long revolted me. That’s a very disturbing KO, not a comedy act.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I was thinking more about how some reacted when Paul Williams was KO’d against Sergio Martinez.
That was just brutal could have f***ing killed him and to be posting pictures and laughing about it as some were on some forums is just not cool and made me feel a bit sick, to be honsest. That kind of thing tells me that the kind of people who do that are either idiots and/or they have never been inside a ring in their lives.
Because if they had, or if they weren’t idiots, they would show more respect to these immensely brave warriors.
posting pictures and laughing about it
Of his face when he was wide eyed and departed from his senses on the canvas, i meant.
That picture creeped me out.
It was scary looking man. He was out but his eyes were not just open, but wide open.
I thought he was dead. I was limp with relief when they got him sitting up. It may have scared Pacquiao too, he’s been more apt to pull his punches when they’re in trouble ever since.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
It may have scared Pacquiao too, he’s been more apt to pull his punches when they’re in trouble ever since.
Interesting point.
I always thought that was the case with Ali and RJJ and probably many others……
That they wanted to show their skills but they never wanted to really hurt anyone as they were wary of the consequences.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 2, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I always felt that way after a street fight when I was a kid. I never really
wanted to hurt anyone. Just wanted to protect myself. And I felt badly if I did hurt somone. I think some boxers are like this. I really do.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Of course, there were/are always exceptions.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
The first KO that unnerved me as I recall
was when Patterson floored Johannsn (sp.?) whose leg quivered as he lay on the canvass—
Not a good sight and not a good feeling. Plus—
I’ll always remember Benny Paret hung up in the ropes, and the thing is that Cooney/Norton didn’t look much different.
by Don From Prov on Jun 1, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing is maybe more obvious to someone away a long time is you see much less of that level of ignorance about stopping fights now than then. Smoger and others are sometimes out of line, too late, it can and does still happen that the fight lasts too long, but it’s lightyears better. It was the first thing I noticed coming back, and for sure made it more inviting to in fact come back. It’s not good enough, but it’s evidence that improvement can happen. And if it can happen, it can continue.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
The worse one I ever saw was Zale's chilling of Graziano which is in the Documentary. In that
one, the figjht should have been stopped before the Rock was decapitated.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
You should do a Tony Zale article--
a largely forgotten, but tough tough man
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
No one would read it. That's the problem with doing old school stuff. Sure, it's nice
to have in my archives, but the juice is in the action and the action for me is engaging posters.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
It’s also the problem with doing anything current that isn’t Pacquiao or Mayweather, believe me.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Three that bothered me were Peters over Jeremy Williams, Brock over Zuri Kawrence,
and Darnell Wilson over Emmanuel Nwodo. All decapitations Very scary.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Filed on Google under "Funny KO"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7INFTyi0WFU
not that you haven’t seen it. It’s the heading that gets me. Re Williams, I agree, but it’s at least not filed under “Funny.”
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I notice that further up you alluded to some of the stuff i mentioned, BoxAnne.
Only just read it. I didn’t copy you, honest. :)
Thanks Matt. This was the year I said I was going to practice what I tend to preach and, rightly
or wrongly, I’m going to get my messages out there. The Documentary gave me agreat platform to go along with my series. Just what the doctor ordered.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Fans can just be stupid sometimes
Athletes get hurt and some fans get all upset because their guy is still on the DL. Can the guy heal? Shit. Or the people who are mad because Floyd Mayweather only fights once a year or once every two years. Maybe he doesn’t want to get hit in the face twice a year. What’s wrong with that? I don’t hold it against him cause I’m not the one getting punched in the face and body. He is. After a college football player died recently, ESPN had the audacity to post an article about it citing how the death would open up playing time for some other players. They caught a lot of flack about it, but I bet there were some fans who were already thinking that same thing. It’s insane. Sometimes people take sports waaaay too seriously. We forget that these are still human beings and not monkeys who should perform for you when you want them too.
by erod on Jun 1, 2011 10:08 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Dirrell might be someone who should think long and hard about whether he should fight again--
He doesn’t seem to love the sport and his state after Abraham hit him was scary.
+1
I that kid was over that second. If he’s not, he shoud be. He had no idea what had happened. Not cool. Paul Williams was in better shape than that after his KO, no weeping, making good sense at the press conference, etc.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
A lot to think about
Great piece Ted, the first step in generating changes or improvements in anything is by first talking about the issue and recognizing what things need to be improved on.
All of this got me thinking on the following:
If you ask someone how do you describe a doctor who does his/her job well, most people’s answer would likely be someone who is up to date in his/her knowledge about diseases and treatments, and who can effectively treat and help to get better those who seek his/her medical advice. The question I would pose to everyone here in light of some of the comments on the thread is how do you describe a boxer who does his job?
Is it someone who always wins his fights, even if getting hit a lot in the process? Is it someone who loses a lot but does not get hit much in his fights? Is it someone who always gives an entertaining fight regardless of the outcome and whether he gets hit a lot or not? To be honest I don’t think there is one answer to that question, or at least I can’t think of one that leaves me completely satisfied.
The reason I ask these questions is because in most professions there is a very clear recognition and acceptance that if you can not perform your job you can not keep doing it, regardless of your age or your past accomplishments. This is particularly true for jobs where someone’s physical integrity (either yours or those around you) is at risk and dependant on how you perform your job. No one in his right mind would allow or give a single supporting argument for a person to continue as a fire fighter if said person can not perform as a figher figher. The risks for every one are simply too high.
How do you make that call in boxing? How do you say this person can not perform any more given that what can be considered performing well or doing your job is so varied?
I think the most clear cut solution to minimize potential injury to a fighter would require stricter medical evaluations or testing like what I mentioned in the previous test. The problem I foresee right now and for which I right now do not have an answer is where do you draw the line in the sand? Going by what I suggested of using functional MRIs as an additional tool, at what point do you say this fighter has had enough brain damage, would it be a loss of 5% in brain function, maybe 10%, how about 15%?
The biggest problem in this manner is that sever brain injury can occur at an instant, from a single blow in a single fight, or from the accumulation of multiple blows over the years. Blows that can injure fighter A may not cause any harm to fighter B. Although right now we are focusing on the guy getting hit, I think some consideration should also be given to the guy doing the hitting. Although physically he may not be as affected, mentally is a different story. Unless the guy has no humanity, I’d think causing severe harm or even death to a fellow fighter has to really screw up your mind. Would Martinez’s or Pacquiao’s behaviour in or out of the ring be different today if either Williams or Hatton had suffered a sever injury or worse in their fights? I know Gabriel Ruelas has said he was never the same person after Jimmy Garcia died after his fight.
Another thing that I just realized looking at some recent articles about brain injuries related to boxing after reading Ted’s piece is a point made in one article looking at boxing mortality over the years (I can send the pdf to anyone interested). Right now, in the vast majority of cases, when a round ends the ringside doctor only checks on a fighter after a cut, not after a knockdown, not after being rocked or wobbled. It is amazing when you consider that no matter how severe a facial cut is, it won’t risk the fighter’s life or well being in the long term, yet a knockdown or being wobbled could have more lasting and serious injuries down the road.
Sorry for the long post, but Ted’s piece and this tread got me thinking in a lot of stuff.
Among other things that can be improved on, and this is a suggestion from an article looking at boxing mortality over the years and
In other professions where the risk of severe injury or even death is always present like police, fire fighting, the military, etc, it is very clear that anyone can be denied to work at such job if you are unable to perform the job
The conundrum of boxing like some have mentioned in the thread is that contrary to other violent sports which have also been associated with severe brain injuries like american football or hockey is that in those sports if push comes to shove you can ban all types of head impacts and the sports themselves would still be in essence the same. That’s not the case with boxing where if you ban head blows you would end up with a vastly different sport.
Ooops, ignore the last bit after my appology for the long post, I forgot to erase some of my early thoughts when I started writing the post. See what you cause Ted :)
Another thing that I just realized looking at some recent articles about brain injuries related to boxing after reading Ted’s piece is a point made in one article looking at boxing mortality over the years (I can send the pdf to anyone interested). Right now, in the vast majority of cases, when a round ends the ringside doctor only checks on a fighter after a cut, not after a knockdown, not after being rocked or wobbled. It is amazing when you consider that no matter how severe a facial cut is, it won’t risk the fighter’s life or well being in the long term, yet a knockdown or being wobbled could have more lasting and serious injuries down the road.
I didn’t realize that. It’s perfectly obvious when you think back. That should change. In the end, you can’t take all risk of brain injury/death out of boxing, or several other sports. And I can live with that as long as everything possible is being done—intensive medical reviews when fighters have been obviously hurt, or are losing too much, doctors checking responses and pupils and whatever at ringside (they actually do sometimes, but it’s not routine enought), more intense scrutiny of catastrophes like Smoger/Jones, with some kind of penalties, demotions, letters of reprimand or like that better PEDs screening, all of it.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Good post, Mr. Solis:
Both your observations and suggestions (see Boxanne’s reply to you) are interesting.
This thread has led to some good stuff being written.
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
And you wonder where I get my ideas for articles and fan posts?
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
You really got me thinking in a lot of stuff, to be honest I feel like trying to square a circle right now. I started checking some of the latest medical/science literature related with brain injuries in sports and specially in boxing and I must say the picture is not pretty at all, however, the positive thing is that there are a lot of very good ideas and suggestions about things that could be done to improve things so that injuries are less frequent and severe, now if only the powers that be were more open to implement changes.
Hell, man, I been feeling like I have been cuaght in the corner od a circular room for as long as I can remember. LOL
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Thank you, I’m fine. Came closer to Ma’s nursing home, but they’re OK too. Have friends in the Union Street area, they could see and hear it—it’s a long street. I’ve driven it often, also Main St., once-pretty Court Square—it’s devastating to see.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
That's good news. Unreal that there were two.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
The whole natural catastrophy thing has been unreal for at least two years. This was devastating for around here—can’t currently reach friends in living in Monson center—but a just drop in the bucket compared to Japan, the Midwest—everywhere, so much weird, deadly, devastating phenomena and weather. Too much.
Locally, of various sizes, there were 19 tornadoes yesterday, and a water spout on the Connecticut River. Unbelievable. Here in Holyoke, high, high winds, and weird, weird yellow sky, but all OK.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
19 communities, not separate tornadoes I guess.
There were more than two.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
And yet, can't be global warning--
Though unusual and larger storms are part of that equation.
I’ve live in NE for most of my life, and I ain’t ever see anything like yesterday.
On CNN
there’s a video of the river water spout, shorter and stouter than oceanic ones, as it forms and sweeps across the South End Bridge. River water spouts are extremely rare, it’s amazing footage. Holyoke was incredibly lucky—tornadoes touched down in Agawam, Springfield, Northampton, Easthampton, Amherst, Whately, and Belchertown. Brimfield and Monson are essentially destroyed.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
That’s what I say. Not till last night did I realize Holyoke was essentially at the center of a ring of tornadoes. At least a few houses were pancaked wherever they hit. The winds really were amazing, and that weird jaundiced sky went all the way around the compass. Mottled sky surface, scary looking sky. My dog’s not usually fussy about storms, and he was scared of this, clinging on me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Green sky = big trouble. Back in Illinois where I grew up, a green sky was all you had to know to
get into the basement. I only experienced one back in 1960. But one was more than enough as it was a killer.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
lemon-lime, nicotinish lemon-lime it was.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Yeah, that advice has kept on in the same general area through the years. I’ve only seen it twice in my life, and nothing came of it for me (luckily), but just seeing it is memorable.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Indiana has had very bad tornados back in the day. Be careful.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
it was an adjustment for me here last summer — I lived right on Lake Michigan when I was in Michigan, so we’d get storms but rare tornado warnings. We had about six or seven warnings here last year, sirens and all that. I’d had about three in my previous 28 years.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Some day I'll send you an article I did called "The Day a Tidal Wave Hit Chicago."
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
also West Springfield and Hadley.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Westfield was hit some. There were tornadic events in Orange, and Northfield, I think. It’s the first time I’ve ever seen Holyoke get lucky, I think we’re the only ones with no more than ordinary storm damage. But we were ringed around by tornados, I can’t believe how many places got at least a slight hit. South End of Springfield, huge, huge damage, Monson and Brimfield (tiny New England postcard towns) are obliterated. And we were all thinking basement type thoughts and watching for dangerous formations.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
What part of The End of the World don't you get?
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Oh,
I get it, a lot of people do; unfortunately, those in positions of power often don’t,
or don’t want to, get it.
by Don From Prov on Jun 2, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Boxing is truly a polarizing sport.
That is the main reason why a lot of people just doesn’t get it the way we do. A niche sport so to speak. It just feels sad when some people who has the power and jurisdiction to improve the welfare of the fighters and the sport in general hasn’t done much. It’s so common to hear poor officiating, bad scorecards, lack of post-career support, terrible matchmaking, etc. that we just joke about it sometimes but the truth is it is really scary when you see fighters unable to fight anymore or even provide for their family.
Why dont we ever see the headline "Psychic
wins lottery" in the newspapers?
The danger is what turns a lot of people off. I’m OK with it if every possible thing is being done to prevent catastrophe, but too often it isn’t. You can’t take all the danger out of sports and still have sports, but they could do a lot better than they’re doing.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
That's a great point and one Jim Lampley once made after Levander Johnson was killed.
If everything has been done to protect the boxer (just the opposite of what happened to Grega Page), then whatever happens comes out of the culture of boxing.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’m thinking it’s just part of the culture of sports (excluding, like, golf)—most really rugged sports, especially classic martial arts, polo and other horse sports etc., began as war games, archaic training for war. I think that’s why the athletes are sometimes called heroes—they’re only merely sports heroes, but the early games were about war, so their lower level of heroism sort of started life as the model for real heroism.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
It really is
it is really scary when you see fighters unable to fight anymore or even provide for their family.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Great piece, Ted. It give voice to that hesitation I think everyone feels at some point in their lives. Boxing has lots of enemies, but it’s important not to just dismiss them outright. There are plenty of terrible outcomes in the sport, just like in life.
I think the key thing I think about is that while there are ways to reduce the risk and the long term damage, the danger will never leave the sport, and nothing can stop the sad stories from happening. The world is too big, and there will always be places for guys like Holyfield and Roy Jones to go and get paid for a fistfight. A single central body controlling all of Boxing to prevent tragedies sounds nice on paper, but it’s a pipe dream. It’s sort of akin to saying that there should be a single central world government to prevent all wars.
I think the best thing we can do is clean up our own house the best we can and hope that others follow by example. I’m not holding my breath for that, since everything is on cable and the internet now and there are plenty of places that can and will make a place for a name fighter to go, and people who will pay to watch.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
A single central body controlling all of Boxing to prevent tragedies sounds nice on paper, but it’s a pipe dream.
It exists in many sports. Like in football, there`s the FIFA. Just another synonym for corruption, as prooven once again just this week. Even if there would be only one central governing institution, I doubt it would change many things for the better.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I know it exists in many sports.
Boxing is NOT like other sports.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Since boxing is structered on the concept of individual contracts and such, it is a difficult
thing to whch penut bbutter can be applied, but unifor rules is a good start.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Oh really
Didn`t recogniize before, but now.. everything makes sense.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
(As Boss Man mentions above) It’s due to the way in which individual contract negotiation is inherent to the sport. Ball clubs negotiate with their players, but Boxers negotiate with each other, and about every detail. That would sort of be like the Phillies negotiating with the Mets about where they would play, the size of the field and what share of ticket sales they’d all get. Boxing is very different and always has been.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
OK
I still don`t get why things are (have to be) as you describe they are, but hey, I don`t need to understand everything. It`s probably part of the fascination of boxing – that it`s so raw and fundamental on the one side and so shady and obscure on the other.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
It’s morally represhensible not to try to remove as much danger from sports as possible without ruining the sport—but danger is part of sports. Without the challenge of meeting and defeating not only the opponent/opposing team, but also the danger of doing so, there is no sport, only some activity oriented parlor game. Re boxing, at sancitoned matches, doctors are in attendance and safety measures are in place. There’s plenty of room for improvement, some of which improvement involves fans’ attitudes, but the attitudes and improvements (more doctors at ringside, fight can’t start without an ambulance on site, refs usually stopping fights much earlier, fewer rounds, still too loose but nonetheless licensing medical exams now exist) since the 50s are huge.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Much has been done since the Greg Page tragedy.
Great post!!
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
On sort of the same note, I’m sure many of you heard that Leavander Johnson had a statue erected in tribute this weekend in NJ. Good turnout at the dedication, including B-Hop, Larry Hazzard, Lou DiBella.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I was thinkg of going myself, but just too far to drive. It was avery nice statue.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I know you have mentioned you respect for Jerry Quarry and how bad he was near the end of his life with dementia, Ted, so, while looking through amazon for book reviews, i found this.
I don’t know if you knew about it or had already mentioned it before but if not i thought you might be interested.
I ordered it about 2 weeks ago through Amazon
Cheers, Matt
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’m gonna buy Barry McGuigan’s newly released book soon. Scott mentioned it before, i think he might be doing a review on it.
Barry’s life outside the ring was probably even more interesting than inside, with his family troubles, etc.
It’s the no.1 bestseller on amazon uk, and therefore the price has come down and is very reasonable.
it’s tough to reconcile the pressure of fans and the glory heaped on fighters who willingly endure punishment in the hopes of winning. think about guys like gatti, ward and a million others we don’t know the name of that will live for years with slight, considerable, or extensive trauma.
and then you think about how Kostya Tszyu was treated for quitting on this stool in a fight where the referee and the rules were clearly not being utilized to protect him from pretty flagrant fouls in addition to the punishment of a professional prize fight for a world championship.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Jun 10, 2011 1:14 AM EDT reply actions
That is what I was trying to get at, in part. Good stuff. theworldsoldestsport
a million others we don’t know the name of that will live for years with slight, considerable, or extensive trauma.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
And I know many of these guys as does Don from Prov. We see them, we talk with them, and
we know what they went thorugh. It’s real and it;’s not pretty.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
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