The Sergio Martinez Dilemma: Why Darren Barker Makes Sense
by Scott Christ on Jun 14, 2011 1:23 PM EDT
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
Email
Print
The reception to the announced October 1 fight between middleweight world champion Sergio Martinez and Darren Barker has been mixed -- some like it, some are just OK with it, some hate it, some assume there just had to be someone better.
There really wasn't anyone any better. Let's examine.
Here's my personal top ten at middleweight, and then I'll throw in some other guys, too:
- Sergio Martinez
- Felix Sturm
- Paul Williams
- Dmitry Pirog
- Gennady Golovkin
- Daniel Geale
- Hassan N'Dam N'Jikam
- Marco Antonio Rubio
- Matthew Macklin
- Darren Barker
I have bolded the names who currently have fights scheduled, and keep in mind that Williams is returning to 154 in his next fight, and is merely listed at 160 until he makes the return official by fighting at 154. But let's really look at this division, or a few from 154 or what have you.
Guys Who Were Absolutely Not Fighting Sergio Martinez on October 1
Felix Sturm isn't going near Sergio Martinez. It's a half a marvel that he's fighting someone as good as Macklin on 6/25. Miguel Cotto and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr are right out -- Top Rank has no interest in putting them in a ring with Martinez. They say it's money. Most assume they're afraid of the results of either fight. Rubio, on that token, is waiting on Chavez, who gives him a chance at the WBC title in a much easier fight.
And through all of this, it should be said: Poor Sergio Martinez actually believes the WBC will soon enforce a fight between he and Chavez after their fall fights are done. I don't know if Lou DiBella buys that, but my instincts tell me he's at least a bit doubtful.
Guys Who Might Have Fought Sergio Martinez on October 1
Dmitry Pirog is the big one that people keep talking about, or at least a very vocal diehard section of the fanbase. And I have no problem with Pirog. I would have very mildly preferred Pirog to Barker. But let's get real: Pirog beat a hyped prospect who had a couple of quality wins to his credit, and that was a year ago. And since then he's done nothing but disappear and fight once, against Javier Maciel in Russia, a fight nobody apparently saw because it wasn't quite so impressive as Pirog picking apart a kid who probably came in a bit overconfident in himself, underestimating the then-unknown Pirog, and got whacked for it. My opinion of Pirog's stock dropped just a bit after that fight.
Pirog is a good fighter, but how much better is he than Barker, or many other middleweights? The issue with this division is that after Martinez, I don't think there's a tremendous gulf in class between the next 12 or 13 guys. You can throw Andy Lee in there, too, who I'd give a reasonable shot to beat anyone from Sturm on down. I'm not saying he'd be a favorite, or more than a large underdog against some of them, but I'd give him a chance.
Pirog's biggest issue is his management. He brings little to the table in the U.S. as he has no fanbase and his management just did not capitalize on that win over Jacobs. They can say that everyone avoided him all they want, but he's got the WBO title, and plenty of guys will take a title shot, even if they're the general Sturm-level opponents. He fought nobody from July to March, which took the hype down, and his big win was on a PPV undercard of a show that wasn't exactly a huge hit. It created buzz, and then the buzz was quieted by inactivity.
In other words, is Pirog any better known in the States than Barker? Maybe slightly, but enough to make a difference when you add in that Barker means there's UK TV money, too? Pirog has become little more than a ghost image on Max Kellerman's "here are the best fighters in the middleweight division" features, and a name that hardcores or "hardcores" call up because of one win last year, which still needs some time before we could properly judge, truly, how impressive it was. All I know for now is he hasn't been active and he didn't look so hot the next time out.
Personally, I'd have preferred Daniel Geale to Barker. Again, I don't think he's a notably better fighter than Barker -- I'd see them about 50-50 head-to-head -- but he would have been a personal preference for me. I think Geale is a good fighter.
But in the end, all I'm really saying here is that for those who are complaining about Barker, you really have to look deeper than "WHY ISN'T HE FIGHTING PIROG?" or "WHY ISN'T HE FIGHTING COTTO?" There are reasons those fights aren't happening -- some good, some bad, and both sides are far from innocent in most cases like these.
And give Darren Barker a little credit. He's a two-time European champion and world stage is the next step. He's a good fighter. Martinez may well dominate him, but this wasn't a soft choice -- it's a far better fight, in my view, than Sebastian Zbik would have been in March for Martinez, had HBO not pulled the old switcheroo on that whole ordeal.
As for Pirog, who seems the greatest complaint from fans who may or may not have ever seen Darren Barker and may or may not have ever seen Pirog more than that one time, his situation is pretty simple: They've got to get him a fight that makes noise again. And I hope he gets one. A lot of people seem to think he'd present a serious challenge, rather than just an acceptable challenge.
36 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Unless Arum feels like sacrificing Chavez
for a quick buck that fight will never happen. He stands no chance against Martinez. 0. Cotto doesn’t stand much chance either so that fight is doubtful to say the least.
I just want Martinez to stay active, period. His options are limited for the reasons you stated above. It’s not like he’s ducking anybody. He wants big fights. He’s not getting any younger.
The only thing he probably won’t do is go up to super middleweight, which is a bridge too far for someone his size anyway.
So the bottom line is if Barker is the best they can do right now, fine, I’ll take it. Pirog can be next in line if his management gets its shit together.
Well said, I completely agree. I personally find the fight with Barker comical because of the amount of currency Martinez currently enjoys, most of it deserved. You can’t make big fights every time out…and there was no way he was going to maintain his momentum after Hattoning PWill.
After Pirog’s last fight, I’m not that interested. I sat in front of my computer watching some lame stream hoping to get another glimpse of the “White Mayweather”…… and he looked pretty pedestrian vs Maciel. I’m sure Pirog’s reality is somewhere between what he showed in the Jacobs fight and what he looked like last time out. Not sure that either version troubles Martinez any more than Barker can or will.
FWIW
I heard he had the flu that fight. Not that it matters much, but it didn’t get widely reported since he still won pretty easily.
I’ve watched enough of his older fights to say he’s closer to the Jacobs fight than the Maciel one.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Poor Sergio Martinez actually believes the WBC will soon enforce a fight between he and Chavez after their fall fights are done. I don’t know if Lou DiBella buys that, but my instincts tell me he’s at least a bit doubtful.
I don’t know if he really believes that. He’s been around the block a few times. He’s gotta say it, but I don’t think he believes it.
Anyway, your instincts are spot-on. Somebody will tap his nose, money will start moving and the world will adjust accordingly.
My God, think about how long it took for them to risk Chavez against John Duddy!
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
But Chavez is a virtual kid still
Sergio is a rather unique phenomenon not simply because of his age but moreso because of how old he was and is at the time of his ultimate success. Time is not in his favor. He happeneddespite winning titles in two weights to be in divisions with no real name competition; the competition.
Chavez is a name but a fiction as a real fighter. Cotto is an undersized junior middle no longer near his prime. Many doubt his longevity or viability after suffering badly from two defeats, those delivered by Pacquaio and Margarito. There really isn’t much call or desire to see Cotto fight a man as big as Martinez although the pay would not be small.
His nationality and again his late start are two other factors working against him. Never having established a fan base of consequence at home, he can’t cruise through mediocrity at home like the KBros have most of their careers ….. and expect to make money.
Most significantly however is the fact that he is in one of the few sport businesses where there are no structures that either mandate and/or guarantee matches be made between any two participants.
Being nice guy doesn’t mean squat. Nor does being loyal. It’s now or never for Sergio. He alone can make the one decision that risky though it be might put him in the money before he chooses to end his career.
My suggestion is to calk out Floyd. When the money was right and the opportunity to great to resist, Floyd took a life changing shot and moved up and beat Oscar at 154. Good for him. It fundamentally changed his career and pocketbook.
Now Sergio should either do the same (move up and take on bigger risks, challenges and purses) or ask that Floyd fight him at a weight he fought and won years ago today.
Other than that, it’s stay busy and collect what he can….and hope. I would counsel the former but not count on the latter.
That’s not just boxing…it’s life. Nobody said it fair.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
How'd you get all of that out of that little thing I posted? :)
Though, I agree with most of it, I guess my mind is pretty much unchanged on what I was talking about, which is where Sergio’s head is at with Chavez. Sure he’d like to pop that balloon for a giant payday, but I’m sure he’s investing more time in plans B, C, D, and E. He’s gotta know how hard it will be to get a fight with Chavez signed, at least in the foreseeable future.
As for Cotto, well, he’ll be the little guy in his fights no matter who he gets. He would have been the little guy against Chavez, too, who walked into the ring a cruiser against Zbik.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I hope he does have a plan B, C, and so forth. It’s not easy and I haven’t quite figured out the plan. Nor has he at this juncture.
I was thinking of horse racing and the matches of historic consequence. Pitting two prize race horses is not a mandate but keeping them away from key matches has a price. Seabiscuit had plenty of success but it was Man of War that represented money and greatness. His owners knew it and so made it their mission, no matter the conditions or odds, to make the match.
Sergio should insult Floyd. He should call him up…and out. He should say (Floyd) he’s fighting a one time WW and not fighting at a weight where he beat Oscar previously. Floyd may counter and say that Sergio wants to fight down but that would brung up Floyd’s much self vaunted victory over the ballon painted to look like JMM. He should say he’s afraid of a lefty. He should tweet and crow until the sun comes up.
Floyd, IMO, could match and probably beat Sergio. He’s just that much better technically and he never gasses like Sergio. In fact, he paces as well as any fighter I can remember.
This is not a demand or an unreasonable request on either man. But I do think it is feasible and that DiBella has everything to gain and nothing to lose by trying.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Well, having advocated the old “throw rocks at his window and pour sugar in the gas tank” routine in the past, there are a couple of things I think about that strategy as far as getting a fight with Floyd Mayweather.
1) It won’t work:
Floyd fights who he wants to fight, period. Margarito tried marching up to Floyd with a video camera and those dumb sunglasses, and even got Mayweather to shake his dainty hand, and it didn’t work. The risk reward just isn’t really there for Floyd, who cherishes his perfect record more than trying, and for a division that is probably a bridge too far… and against a fast southpaw who’s bigger then him at that. If he’s going to risk al that, it might as well be for the best possible payday in boxing, and against a smaller guy like Pacquaio. And we saw how well THOSE negotiations turned out.
2) It looks bad for Sergio:
“Calling out” a guy is a lame, mostly highly orchestrated bit of boxing theater these days. Supposedly, JMM got the Mayweather fight by “calling him out” in the ring after his Diaz fight. Okay, yeah he said “I want Mayweather” but we all no deep down that this was just a bit of free promo for something that was already in deep discussion on the business side, behind closed doors. Same goes for that pro-wrestling horseshit that was going on in the ring after Mayweather-JMM with Shane and those guys, which looked about as spontaneous as a New Year’s Day parade. The fight isn’t going to be made in broad daylight, and it would just make Sergio look desperate. After all, he is the champ, he’s naturally bigger, and he’s basically begging Floyd for a paycheck at that point.
3) A Martinez win has no Boxing meaning
I’m sure there are plenty of people who would argue with me, along historical lines or whatever. But if Sergio beats Mayweather, it doesn’t mean anything. Sergio may not be the biggest middleweight in history, and Floyd may not be the smallest welterweight, but these guys are not in the same weight class. They just aren’t. If Floyd beats Sergio… well okay that’s a slightly different story! But again, that’s a mountain for Floyd to climb if he wants to try. He can’t be “embarrassed” into doing it, at least not in a logical way. No sane person would think that Floyd is “ducking” Sergio Martinez. While there’s a lot of suckers out there, I don’t think anyone would buy that line. It’s all about risk/reward, as usual.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Agree in point one
Less so the latter two
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Well, that’s okay, because of the three points, I think that was the most important. It won’t work. So, why bother?
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Just to annoy Floyd. No other reason.
He could wear a I’ll take the test’ T-shirt.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You can't be serious....
He happened despite winning titles in two weights to be in divisions with no real name competition
I’m not sure what you mean here? Do you mean that he didn’t beat anyone who could sell tickets, because I heard that he beat this Pavlik guy who was awesome enough to headline his own awesome PPV event of utter awesomeness. If you mean he didn’t beat anyone good, then who is Paul Williams? The guy who Cotto and Pacquiao avoided like the plague because he was a freak and good at boxing.
My suggestion is to calk out Floyd
Bwahahahahahahahaha. That’s hilarious. He should try to get a fight with AA or a catchweight fight with one of top SMW’s if he wants the best fight. If he wants cash there is simply one answer JCC jr. He has 43 fights, a belt, and is 25. What part of that makes him a kid? He’s not a kid, he’s just not good. If HBO and Showtime took a hard stance on JCC jr (aka refused to put him on TV) unless he fights Sergio and Arum will stick him in the ring with Sergio faster than you can say “cerveza con caracter”
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Jun 14, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I said he won two legit titles but thought it was pretty clear…and absolutely true…that there is no real big name competition that can be competitive in these divisions any longer. Cot to and Chavez cannot compete with Martinez. Chavez certainly not. In fact Chavez has never beaten real threatening competition himself. Thus he’s a fiction IMO.
I have called on him to move up in weight and rematch Pavlik if possible or meet AA in Berlin where Arthur sells well. But being a nice loyal guy ain’t gonna get him shit waiting around.
And Floyd is not a joke. He should be goaded. What’s to lose. He can fight at 154 an Sergio would fight him even lower if he could. It would be a huge payday…and he would have a chance at legacy. Or being exposed and pot shorted to death by a master with superior technical skills.
Forget Chavez. He is Lorenzo Lamas incarnate. Good provenance. Mediocre Skills. may for TV only.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I still have no idea what you think an Abraham or Pavlik fight would accomplish. He’d receive even less credit fighting them than he would for beating Chavez, and far less money as well. The likelihood of Sauerland letting him fight Abraham at this point in time is equivalent to Top Rank letting him get Chavez. Likewise Pavlik has done absolutely nothing to establish himself as a credible opponent at 168, nor has he demonstrated that he’s half the draw he was before he fell off the face of the earth.
The point Is he's not getting Chavez now....or more than likely ever
So why waste time and effort on the Zs or the Barkers or Pirogs of the world fo no money. No one knows these guys and beating them silly won’t mean squat to his legacy or value. He should do what aged fighters do. Fight big names only. And make money if and wherever he can.
It may just be that he is fucked being h king of two crap divisions. He should talk to Vladimir Kilitscko, the ruler of the worst division in boxing. Problem is Vlad had zero choices but to fight the bum of the month.
Martinez bugs because he says he wants big names ….but the guys with bigger names happen to be much smaller guys. And he is making no gestures to indicate he really want the money if the men are bigger.
Props go to Pacquiao, Marquez and Morales for stepping up. Martinez win two fights and thinks he ‘deserves’ money fights. Well guess what. No one deserves money fights. They learn to earn it.
Men move up or down in pursuit of fame and fortune all the time. Floyd beat a bigger Oscar. Williams moved up to fight because he couldn’t get welters other than Clottey and Margarito to fight him.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Hopkins met Pavlik at a tweener to see who was the better man. even AA moved up.
Marquez I needn’t mention as he has proved himself win or lose. morales came up o fight fucking Maidana for a shot at the limelight and revitalized his defunct career.
Martinez has options. He’s just not using them. And time is going to run out.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
The idea that Martinez has never moved up is inaccurate though; he moved up for good to 160 just a year ago. He took on the lineal champion of his division as an underdog, being outweighed by 11 pounds on the night of the fight. I realize you’re quite happy to discredit that win, but I’m pretty sure taking that fight is constitutes “manning up” and it was a direct result of no one wanting to fight him at 154.
And again, the options above him are scarcely better than they are at middleweight. No one knows how much money an Abraham fight would do right now. We do know that it’s just as meaningless from a legacy perspective as beating up younger middleweights; indeed, it’s likely worse because some of the middleweights could go on to have successful careers (a la Glen Johnson post-Hopkins beatdown), whereas Abraham has been thoroughly exposed. And Martinez is just as likely to land that fight as he is one with Sturm, but the latter would not require moving up and would look far better on his resume. He can in fact make money fighting the young middleweights of the world while not removing himself from contention with the smaller guys with bigger names. He made 2 million for the Dzinziruk fight for instance.
Saying “fight big names only” sounds really swell but it’s pretty much an utterly meaningless imperative. I likewise have no idea what constitutes an acceptable “gesture” for indicating that he would move up for big names. The fact of the matter is that there aren’t many big names above him that are going to be available for at least a year and not a single one of them offers money that is in any way comparable to the guys below him. If you’re sick of hearing Martinez talk about those guys, maybe you should be equally angry at Floyd for saying he was interested in the Martinez-Williams winner, Cotto for saying he’d love to do the fight, and Pacquiao for winning a belt that Martinez held immediately prior to him. I realize that he’s unlikely to land those fights, but it’s not like his mentioning of their names is completely random or unjustified.
Martinez moved up exactly 1/2 a pound from 159 to 159 1/2 to fight Pavlik
He fought Williams and lost the disputed decision at exactly 159 pounds fi the junior middleweight title and then beat him at a catchweight agreed to by both fighters in their rematch at 157.
Pavlik he fought at a half pound difference and Sergio beat him. I don’t care what Pavlik weighed the night of the fight any more that I care what Martinez weighted the night he beat Williams. That is not how records are maintained or fights judged.
If it were Pacquiao would be the greatest of all time. Which he’s not.
Then after He demolished Williams he fought Serhiy Dzinziruk a lifetime junior middle whose last four fights were between 151 and 154. Sergio met him to win the vaunted vacant Diamond Middleweight belt; effectively defending his middleweight title against a smaller man. Whoop de fucking do.
Everything since then is about him fighting big names or deserving them. As I said,we don’t deserve shit. We learn to earn it. You do. Great job but the company or industry changes or weakens, you move on. Or stop complaining when it’s the same old same old.
Sergio seem a great guy. But he is playing a shitty game of finding the gold coin under the cup.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Several problems with this comment. The first Williams fight was at the middleweight limit and not for the junior middleweight title. Martinez took the fight on short notice to fill in for Pavlik. Prior to that he fought at 154 vs. Cintron, so if you want to be completely accurate he’s been at 160 for a year and a half rather than a year. That being said, he was still trying to get Vanes or another junior middle in the ring prior to the Pavlik fight, so it’s not like he consciously chose to stay at middle prior to the Williams fight.
Beyond this, you’ve definitely defended/praised Pacquiao for giving up pounds based on fight night weights (especially against Margarito), so this just strikes me as a complete double standard. Additionally, if beating Pavlik with a mere half-pound difference the day before the weigh-in isn’t impressive, then why does he get no credit for beating Dzinziruk, as they weighed the exact same amount at their weigh-in? What’s the criterion? The weight the guy was in his previous fight? The difference in weight the night before the fight?
It’s great that the Dzinziruk fight elicits little more than a whoop-de-doo from you. I’m curious though, does Hagler’s victory over Hearns prompt a similar reaction? After all that was another case of a big bad middleweight picking on the best junior middle in the world. How about his win over Duran? What about Monzon-Napoles? You don’t have to bother correcting me that all of these guys enoy a greater historical status than Martinez and Dzinziruk; I’m well-aware of that fact. Yet Dzinziruk was regarded by many as the best junior middleweight in the world, and there’s a long history of middleweight champions fighting the best in class in the lower weight. There’s no reason to discredit that fight based on weight alone.
Finally, I would love if you could tell me which fighters have taken on tougher competition over their past five fights than Martinez, because outside of Froch and maybe Mosley, I can’t think of anyone who has. He may be naive when he talks about deserving big fights, but the idea that he hasn’t been actively trying to earn them is completely absurd.
Oh...and forget Showtime or HBO
Thet are money making corporations. Chavez makes money. Sergio ruins profitable prospects. Do the math. It sucks.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Mayweather responding to Martinez’s call-out: “You the champ and you couldn’t even get HBO to buy a fight between you and Zbik. And that wasn’t Zbik’s fault, because I just saw his ass on HBO.”
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Here’s some scary math: Chavez versus Mayweather for the WBC middleweight title! Hahaha, IT COULD HAPPEN FOLKS.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Big numbers. Foregone conclusion but nice risk reward.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Man, while Sergio is busy sueing the Bejesus out of the WBC for it, those cats would be swimming in bathtubs of money. Never underestimate the Mexican boxing fan as far as turning up big for a guy they love, even in a hopeless situation. They turned up huge to watch an old, pudgy JMM eat jabs and lead rights for 12 rounds.
Dammit, I wouldn’t put it past Floyd, either. He’d love to pick that delicious cherry.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
(well, either seing them, or counting the requisite bribe money)
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
BTW, Chavez is 25 years old. A kid by most any measure.
Many years ahead to milk every nickel out of his good name
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
They have no reason to risk Chavez. The WBC is as much in the JCC Jr business as Top Rank or HBO.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jun 14, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post...
Agree completely.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Just underlines what a terrible promoter Mick Hennessy is….as soon as Froch leaves he gets a UK TV deal, as soon as Barker leaves he gets a world title fight with the no.2 P4P. Matchroom are doing great things for our UK fighters.
by Shitali Klitschko on Jun 14, 2011 11:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree with Mr Christ on this one. There is not a great deal to choose between number 2 and 10/12 at 160 and barker is in the mix. He may supprise a few people. He is a slick boxer and good counter puncher who is unlikely to stand and trade with Martinez. I don’t think he can win but he could last the 12 and be cometetive.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bad Left Hook
Related FanShots on Bad Left Hook
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
