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Juan Manuel Marquez vs Likar Ramos Knockout: You Make the Call

Alright, let's put this to rest. Here's the video for any who haven't seen it or haven't made up their minds:

So the question is: Did Likar Ramos stage his knockout ("knockout," if you think he did), or was this the real deal?

I am usually hesitant to second-guess things like this. Whether that's a protective shell for my own sanity is up for debate, but after watching this over and over and over again, I'm throwing my hat in the ring with those who believe Ramos took a dive. I'm not saying Marquez and Ramos knew he was going down in 1:47 or that Marquez was aware of anything, but I'm saying Likar Ramos looks like he went night-night in the land of make believe. He got hit, and since he's so bad and Marquez is so good, sure that could have knocked him down, without question. Maybe it stops him. But that stumbling, eyes closed deal? Not so much. Not so much, I'm afraid.

But it's your call: Real KO or Likar Ramos acting job?

Poll
Did Likar Ramos stage the knockout against Juan Manuel Marquez?
Yes
833 votes
No
340 votes

1173 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 49 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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yup

That’s what it looked like. He got hit, he got hurt, then he faked being out cold because he wanted out. Strange to see a guy get hit hard, stumble back (a sign that his nervous system was not completely shook) and THEN go out after landing without slamming his head on the canvas. Most guys that go out cold fall back without trying to catch themselves first.

by younggunzvt on Jul 18, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm Hairsplittin

I voted no because I don’t think it was a prearranged fix, and I do think it was a legit flash KD. But the rest was “fuck this, I’m staying down.” I don’t know if that qualifies as staged, or just quitting.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Jul 18, 2011 8:52 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

That's my feeling.

Punch looked legit enough. Probably thought “I ain’t winning, so no sense in being a punching bag for any longer and collecting the same paycheck, so I’ll just chill out here for a minute.”

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Jul 18, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would qualify as staged. Ramos was not really knocked out, he just did the whole dramatic bit.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Jul 18, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he was certainly acting—I guess I hear “staged” as pre-planned, which I don’t think it was. But that’s just semantics, he was for sure acting.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Jul 18, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 18, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree – this wasn’t prearranged. It was a good shot but did not look like a “lights out” kind of shot – fighters don’t tend to run backwards when they’re knocked out clean – they just fall. Examples would be Hatton, Williams, Montiel… shot lands clean and legs don’t work. This guys back-pedals, hits the deck and then “goes to sleep” – His head didn’t even bounce off the canvas!

Totally buy into the “wanting out” scenario… Personally I wouldn’t want JMM pounding on me for an extended period of time… There are just better ways to stay down in my humble opinion.

It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves.
- Edmund Hillary

by Stevosaurus Rex on Jul 18, 2011 9:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree

Likar went to collect a Paycheck, like Mosley,Clottey, Margarito went to make the fight intresting and collect a Paycheck since hee needed one.

The K’O looked the same one he did to Jaca.

by rgb on Jul 18, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

Noticed the same thing. Guys don’t try to correct their balance when out cold, and he didn’t slam himself out on the canvas.

by younggunzvt on Jul 18, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with everyone

He was knocked down with a nice punch, and probably decided he did not want to fight anymore.

by KyleAskine on Jul 18, 2011 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m still not sure why anyone cares. Marquez was never going to lose this fight, UD or KO it makes little difference.

by lightmartyr on Jul 18, 2011 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

The legitimacy of fights does kind of matter though.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 18, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

+ 1

I think this is the main idea from all of these “farces” that we have had in the past few weekends: completely corrupt (or inept) judging, fighters who shouldn’t be on the same stratosphere with other fighters, and fighters who should not be medically cleared to be on a ring in the first place. There’s an issue of legitimacy in all of these things.

Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.

by Apprentice on Jul 18, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do agree

And I would like to echo one point there, Marquez fighting someone as low down as Ramos raises an issue of legitimacy.

I know it’s a tune up fight, but Ramos wouldn’t be a fighter fit to serve as a tune up for any top 10 LW never mind the lineal LW champ and P4P player. Going anywhere near Ramos reflects badly on Marquez.

I honestly expected Ramos to get chopped down in the first and said as much to my mate watching the fight with me.

by lightmartyr on Jul 18, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

He stumbled backwards, and then was ‘out cold’ eyes closed on the mat. If he was really knocked out cold he would’ve just fallen straight down, not stumbled back.

He got hit with a great shot right on the chin, definitely hurt him, but he decided on the way down that he’d had enough.

#1 Devon Alexander hater

by uGotKTFO on Jul 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah after watching the replay a couple times I think your assessment is right. He got hit with a good, hard shot and decided to call it a night.

by Sammlung on Jul 18, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Juan Manuel Marquez needed this farce

To find the motivation to start training to fight Manny Pacquiao, maybe its time to hang ’em up. With the Alexander and Williams decisions, and the Burns fight and this fight in the same weekend, pre-ordained outcomes are very quickly becoming a much-too common theme.

by Quickhooks on Jul 18, 2011 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

And no.

I don’t know why I hypenated much-too.

by Quickhooks on Jul 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it was about motivation. I think he’s 37 years old and didn’t think it would be wise to have a year layoff.

by Sammlung on Jul 18, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. It was a way to get paid for an extra, “practice” fight camp, and a dress rehearsal.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Jul 18, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way he was out cold. He braced his own fall

by traydawg on Jul 18, 2011 11:49 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Wasn’t pre-arranged, the earlier body shots meant that he wanted out in my opinion.

Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.

by Dafs on Jul 18, 2011 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

It's only fitting that

Between this (I voted dive), Williams/Lara, and to a lesser extent Alexander/Matthysse boxing has had it’s fair share of ugliness mixed in with all of the awesome fights we’ve had recently.

by soulrise on Jul 18, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I think everybody is getting the same picture. A little voice told him “stay down, kid” and he listened. I don’t necessarily blame him too much. He was sent in there as a lamb to a slaughter, and was probably going to get drilled like that again and again.

Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Jul 18, 2011 3:52 PM EDT reply actions  

The problem is, he should have rubber legged it. Not pretended to be out cold. You know, do the ol’ “try to get up at 8 and slip back to the mat” bit.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

"How to Quit Gracefully and Convincingly" by Brent Brookhouse

Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates

by ElliotMatheny on Jul 18, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, he’s not much of a boxer or an actor for that matter

Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.

by Apprentice on Jul 18, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shoulda done this.

"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna

by VenusBlue on Jul 18, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ha!

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 18, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn’t even look like he landed heavy, kind of using his right arm as a break fall so he would bang his head. Too early in the fight to be ko’d like that for me. That was the type of knock down we see, usually after an accumulation of punches landing, over several rounds. Can’t blame Marquez for that though.

by Phill on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing. Cause he didn’t move afterwards but still backpedaled to oblivion. I always thought your whole body shuts down and collapses. Why he would take a dive in the first round for a fiighter that wants a warm up befor eManny Pacqiuao, I dont know why he’d do that.

aka DJ Enwurd, on the wheels of steel spinnin only the livest shit you've heard on the radio over and over again while shakin his dreds.
@KrimsonTVN
DIA2ill.com coming soon....

by Krimson on Jul 18, 2011 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

definately took a dive because...

…it seems pretty clear that he tried to break his fall by posting with his right arm. When you’re knocked unconscious you don’t do this.

Internet MMA radio Thursdays at 7PM/EST
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by joeshowradio on Jul 18, 2011 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

It wouldn’t surprise me if Arum or one of his flunkies suggested to Ramos that it would really help promotion for Marquez’s real 2011 fight if he had a one punch KO on his recent record. Arum doesn’t give 1/2 a shit about hardcore boxing because let’s be honest, hardcore fans will order Pacquiao-Marquez 3 or they won’t. What Arum does care about is being able to show highlights of the Hatton KO next to this one to casual fans. WHO R U PICKIN???;):)!!!!! Expect to see this “KO” a few more times en route to their fight.

by glatin1982 on Jul 18, 2011 5:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Hard to really say for me. The knockdown was genuine, and I think a fighter can be hit hard enough so that they’re essentially out, but might still reflexively try to keep their feet (hence the backpedaling.

One thing it was hard to see is how hard his head hit the canvas, although in the last replay I thought that the right side of his head may had hit rather hard, although I can’t say for sure.

I notice that when he was down, and someone touched his head to adjust it, he didn’t flinch even though his eyes were closed and presumably couldn’t anticipate that someone would be touching him near his face. Facial flinch is reflexive, unless the person is really out of it.

So, I don’t know.

by DrRck on Jul 18, 2011 6:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Playing dead half-way properly means readying yourself not to flinch in that situation.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Jul 18, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, but that’s difficult to do.

I’m not defending Ramos; all I wanted to point out is that trying to diagnose a concussion from the visual record we all have is not a simple thing. It’s possible that everything after the knockdown was a sham. But, maybe not.

by DrRck on Jul 19, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ramos quit.. and did a horrible acting job. He simply knew he couldnt win, so instead of getting up.. he played dead.

by jerranamo on Jul 18, 2011 7:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I voted yes but...

Ramos stayed down because of fear; not because the fight was fixed

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 18, 2011 9:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Basically, people need to put the tin foil hats down it was pretty clear what happened to reason to reach further than that this Ramos kid looks bad enough as it is.

by Raker on Jul 19, 2011 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

exactly

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 19, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s a disgrace! that should have called for an immediate investigation. if they can suspend the judges of the williams/lara fight they should have at the very least held ramos’s purse and looked into his relationship with top rank, considering what was at stake and top rank’s scandalous history……..this shows money is still the root of all evil and scumbag bob is still one of the most despicable human beings to ever have walked the face of the earth

by rckdees on Jul 19, 2011 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Not really. Just annoying.

It was in Mexico. Not sure who “they” are? Who would do the suspending in Mexico? Agree withholding Ramos’s purse (have trouble believing it’s a big buck) seems like a fair response, who’s going to withhold it? The guy paying it’s probably Bob and if it’s not bothering him, it’s not bothering me. If you can get the name of whoever is in charge of boxing in Cancun, Mexico, maybe you could write to them. But it’s not the kind of outrage Lara-Williams was, as the only unfairness in this case is to the observers, who have little to lose other than a portion of the price of admission, since all the other fighters on the card performed as well as they could, even Uribe. Most of us saw it free and legal. It’s not a fixed fight, imo, but Ramos did cheat the audience, there you have a point. Not sure how outrageous it is, can’t seem to muster much outrage myself.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Jul 19, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Frankly, I feel no outrage for this. Like you said, I didn’t pay anything to watch that. Maybe the people who did pay to attend might feel cheated and outraged. Other than that, I feel indifferent towards this whole thing. If anyone should feel outraged it’s, maybe, the ones who paid him for this fiasco. Maybe JMM wanted a glorified sparing session, at least a few rounds, and maybe he feels a bit cheated (though it doesn’t seem like it).

Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.

by Apprentice on Jul 19, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

it is an outrage

 the casual fan probably will take a casual attitude to this fight, but to die hards like myself it truly is a disgrace…..it has nothing to do with the money i would pay to watch a fight and everything to do with the characters involved. you need to read up on scumbag bob’s history ( not wikipedia ) and maybe you and few others might form a little more outrage. just a few months ago one of top ranks top promoter’s was convicted of stealing money from yuri boy campas, but you’re not going to hear about that on these boxing blogs or by these so called boxing experts. top rank and specifically scumbag bob have been pulling this bs for decades.

by rckdees on Jul 19, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re exactly right about mexico. anything goes. same situation with margarito when he was still under suspension from vegas. scumbag bob has to keep margarito quiet about his knowledge of the loaded gloves and get him a pay day.

by rckdees on Jul 19, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

This isnt anywhere near the robbery of Williams/Lara

The kid knew he had no shot, so he stayed down after the flash knockdown. You really think it would have made it past 3 rounds if he got back up? No way, not when he’s in the ring with a potential HOF’er in there.

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 19, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

flash knock down?

marquez hit him with the same right hand he threw 5 seconds earlier then he staggers back, braces himself, then slams eyes shut and you consider that a flash knock down? and i do put williams and lara in the same boat especially if you think there was collusion between the judges what’s so far fetched in thinking scumbag bob wouldn’t convince ramos to a take dive?

by rckdees on Jul 19, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its not a conspiracy

The guy got rocked, said eff this, and stayed down. Happens in boxing. I remember one of Juan Ma Lopez’a earlier fights (I think it was on the DLH Pac undercard) where he knocked the guy down without so much as landing a blow. This guy is no where near the same talent as Lara, plus Lara was denied a decision. That’s why these two fights are not comparable. I still stand by my opinion that this fight would not have made it past 3 rounds. Believe it or not, JMM does have KO power. Otherwise he would not have won 37 of his fights by KO

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson

by Calikula on Jul 19, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

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