How the Klitschkos Saved Boxing
by DrHenrik on Jul 8, 2011 6:10 AM EDT
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Printor: why the heavyweight - division could start healing now.
(Disclaimer: people easily offended by clumsy and error-prone language please stop reading now. I gave it my best, but it's certainly low standard still.)
By beating David Haye in a clear-enough decision, Wladimir Klitschko finally fulfilled the long standing wish of the family: to unite all the belts that contain some publicly acknowledged value under the Klitschko-dynasty. Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko are the undisputed heavyweight champions of the world, now emphasized by being accepted champions of those organizations with some authority: WBC, WBO, WBA, IBF and IBO.
This happens at a time when for many years the it's a common position to state that the "heavyweight division is dead", which ususally refers to rarely an exciting fight being made up on higher level. Fights involving the brothers have a tendency to being one-sided and therefore boring, as rarely someone is willing and able to actually force them into a fight. At the same time, fights between contenders have been avoided as much as possible by most of them, though there were repeated attempts to e.g. start tournaments in order to define the next challenger by eliminator. The usual result was a big let-down by those which actually could have made those tournaments watchable.
Many expectations were put on the clash of Haye and W. Klitschko, and many put all their hope in Haye to pull the upset, as they considered this the only possible way to have the division shaken up, get some action into it and thus bring it back to life.
Now I tell you why the loss of Haye is actually the outcome with a much higher potential for healing the heavyweight:
As there is only one champion left in the division (the brothers stand as one), it will actually be much more difficult to earn a shot at the title. With their status as "super champion" etc., the Ks have a much better position to avoid obligatory challengers and choose their opponents for other reasons. So why is this a good thing? It is a good thing for the reason that the status of an obligatory challenger was reached on very defensive tracks during the last years. The top-guys of the division tried to sneak up their way in the rankings somehow, carefully avoiding each other and kind of helding hostage a strong position on the list. But now, this approach has lost a lot of attractiveness. In order to earn a shot at a Klitschko, you will need to be outstanding. You will need to be able to offer something. And to gain this, you will need quality wins over quality competition.
So though there is little hope that we will actually have close and interesting championship-fights in the near future, there is a lot of hope that there will be a number of exciting and tough match-ups in the second row. And this would be a lot more than the division had to offer for quite some time now.
The heavyweight-division is dead. Long live the heavyweight-division!
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What happened to the nimble, athletic Heavyweights? Most Heavyweight fights today remind me of Rock-Em Sock-Em Robots. No footwork needed here guys! I hate watching “elite” athletes who look sloppy. And by sloppy I mean EVERYTHING about them looks sloppy. The jiggling love-handles, the horrible, non-existent footwork, the sloppy looping punches, the way the shorts and guards try to hide their flab. I feel like the attitude of most heavyweights is, "hey, I can take a punch…what more should you want from a heavyweight?
Complain all you want about how “boring” the Klitschko brothers are but at least they look and act like world class athletes. (Not you as in the poster but you as in casual boxing fans)
As you consider athleticism as of high importance , I guess you really enjoyed Haye – WK?! But well, I think I know what you mean. I remember how I felt when I first saw Odlanier Solis or Chris Arreola after I’ve read boxing experts going wild about how they are the new stars of boxing. But then, watching “chubbies” like them fight can just be stunningly surprising.
Actually I’m not following boxing long enough to be able to profoundly compare different ages of boxing history. Would you say that the 2nd and 3rd row of heavyweight-boxers have been in a much better shape in earlier days than today?
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
As you consider athleticism as of high importance , I guess you really enjoyed Haye – WK?!
Yes, I did enjoy seeing two fit Heavyweights square off. My enjoyment, sadly, ended when it became apparent Haye was there to point out the fact that Klitschko uses his height to tire out his opponents when they come inside INSTEAD of chopping the tree when he got inside. Yeah, thanks Haye, we knew that. Ugh, Heavyweights…
That was utterly annoying. He was making brothers with AA there in calling for the ref’s aid. Should have rewatched the Lewis vs, Vitali – bout before. There are ways to sneak in an uppercut in that situation. It’s not all about falling down or rabbit punches.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
It was so blatant too, he was looking towards the ref before he even lunged in. “Hey, Ref, watch what happens when I lung in and duck my head”
Or the “look, the full weight of his outstretched arm was on my head!” (2 times).
Or the point-deduction: “Hey ref, I was just licking his bellybutton with my arms wrapped around him. How could he not just freeze in that position?”
Arrrgh. I was trying to stop hating Haye. It’ll take some time, obviously.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I never really had an opinion of him until the promotion for this past fight. (Sorry, I’m just not going to get excited for Haye-Audley) He made me believe he would be different and then he pulled that crap AND THEN he pulled his pinky toe out in the ring and showed it to anyone willing to look. F***, stand still and throw if it hurts that bad. At least then if you get KO’d you can say you went out on your shield.
I think the second- and third-tier of the population in general were once, in earlier days, not necessarily healthier but certainly not fat.
I like it
I preferred the second title, and the disclaimer made me laugh, but I think its a good argument in the piece. If some of the second tier guys actually start fighting each other more, then we’ll see much better fights than we do now in the division. I heard about Chagaev-Povetkin a few days ago on here, so there are positive signs already.
I like thinking this way more than ‘the heavyweight division is now done’ etc. I don’t know that they’re going to have to be ‘outstanding’ to get a fight with Wlad or Vitali (I mean, Wlad’s talked about the Chisora-Fury winner already) but they’re not really going to be able to talk their way in now they locked up all the titles.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Hah
after posting this, I feared that my attempt to be catchy with the title might have gone a little bit too far!
I actually really feel that Chisora would deserve an attempt after being dropped two times by WK. Not that it would feel like a competitive event, just for a .. sense of justice.
There’s been talk about Solis – Haye, too, a match I’d like to see about as much as Chagaev-Povetkin. That’ll take time to happen, if at all, but these kind of matchups are just what I’m really hoping for.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Good piece, I liked it, and I agree with Brian about the disclamer note. I see your point and for the most part I think you are correct and that should lead to more even and competitive fights in the division; however, this got me thinking into the following. The biggest criticism that the heavyweight division gets (at least to my perception) is not so much that the top fighters not named Klitschko are not facing each other, but instead that most fighters not named Klitschko are simply not any good. If what you describe does happen and you get more fights bewteen the 3-7 guys in the division, once the dust settles the problem would be the same. That among those guys in the spots 3-7 there is no one even near the level of the Klitschkos, so if the Klitschkos want to keep fighting they would still do it against one of them, regardless of whether or not said challenger earned his shot.
You’re adressing a problem here for which I didn’t find any convincing answer yet. It’s about if there’s a way to compare different ages of boxing. Maybe you could call it the “time-channel”-question. I mean, is there any possibility to objectively tell how good or bad nowadays heavyweight-boxers are compared to other times? Can you tell for sure that the Klitschkos wouldn’t be dominating in a similar fashion if they could be transported into the 60s, 70s, 80s…? Maybe an Ali or Foreman wouldn’t really stand a chance against them, how can we tell? (Actually George Foreman made a statement that could be interpreted like this during the WK – Haye – fight).
I do agree that probably no “true challenger” will appear in the near future. But what I’m looking forward to is the process of defining the challengers to come.
And after all, there’s the one big enemy the Klitschkos will have to surrender to sooner or later: time.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Sorry for bringing another problem which I know is not the one you were trying to address. I do think that going forward it would be in the division’s benefit (at least from a competition and merit point of view even if not necessarily economic) if things play out like you suggest, and I really hope they do. I think not just the HW division, but boxing in general could use a bit more emphasis on the merits of a fighter from a sport’s point of view over the business side of things, which I think right now is priority number one in most instances when scheduling fights.
The way I see it the HW division is in a really though spot because both K brothers are clearly better than anyone else in the division right now, regardless of how good or bad people want to rate the K Bros or the rest of the division with respect to other eras (I’m not too fond of mythical time machine matchups because like you say, there really is no way of knowing one way or another).
I’d think that anytime any division (heck, forget about boxing, any sport) goes through a long period of complete dominance by one party over everyone else, discussions like this flare up, where people wonder if this is the result of one side being extremely good, or the rest being really bad, or a little bit of both. Sports tend to become dull and uninteresting if there is no drama or uncertainty about the outcome for a long period of time.
The problem the HW division has over other divisions is that if the current pool of fighters in a particular division is perceived as shallow compared to the top man, it can be replenished with relative ease with fighters from other divisions moving up or down to challenge the man at the top without having to wait for new talent to develop from within the division. At the HW limit given the huge differences in weight and size, making that jump is a lot harder and it only occurs from one side, so it complicates things, especially when the new talent developed within the division seems to be taking forever to step up.
Yeah, the heavyweight is the high end – that’s a reason why it’s destined to be of special importance for the whole sport (and why people suffer that much from not seing it live up to the expectations for quite a while now).
Promoters go for the money (and who could blame them). Boxers go for the money and the merits. Now the highest merits and the biggest money are undoubtedly combined in the Ks. It has become much more difficult to make big money fights without taking serious risks. No David Haye can walk around any more, claim to be “world champion” and take on “bitter arch-rival” Harrison for a payday with a sportive importance very close to the temperature of freezing water.
But I think, in the end it just comes down to which point of view you’d want to take. If you can enjoy watching the smaller sharps in the more shallow water sorting it out, growing, and as time comes, building up the next monster to take on the really big quest, there could be fun times awaiting you. If this is something you don’t really mind about, if your interest is rather focused on the big sharps in the deep water and what you’´re really waiting for is them getting involved in some thrilling action, then I agree that the heavyweight is a bad place to spent time and attention to at the moment.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
And to gain this, you will need quality wins over quality competition.
Ah, but that’s the rub: where will they find this quality opposition? If you mean that a challenger “has to fight a top-tenner”, well, okay. But it wasn’t so long ago that Albert Sosnowski got a title shot.
From a financial standpoint, the division needs names that can bring money to justify buying TV fights. If it’s American money they are after, they are going to have a tough, uphill climb. Arreola is pretty much the only guy. No one wants to see Kingpin Johnson where boxing gloves again, Toney and Holyfield are way over the rainbow and guys like Tor Hamer and Tony Thompson just don’t cut the muster. That’s why when Wlad name drops, he only talks “Arreola and Those Two British Guys.” All three have loyal ethnic/national fanbases that will bring money to the table.
Serious question: Does Dereck Chisora and Tyson Fury fighting for the right to Wlad count as one of those elminators that will heal the heavyweight division? I sure hope not. The only thing that could rescue the division is a new Mega Talent who can suddenly and viciously sweep through the ranks in Tyson-esque fashion. Tyson was the last guy to save the sinking heavyweight ship, and the division was almost as much of of mess back then as it is now.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Arrrgh
From a financial standpoint, the division needs names that can bring money to justify buying TV fights.
I hate it when reality is throwing back on me. Still, there’s the hope that by some tournament with skilled boxers, exciting fights and a deserved and widely discussed winner, an opponent will be build that is able to excite boxing fans around the world to create the surrounding for the next big heavyweight championship bout. That happening or not,, the tournament itself might be a pleasure to watch. For my taste, it mustn’t always be the most talented boxers that deliver the best fights. To make for an exciting clash, it seems more important to me that the combatants are on a similar level. And this is what hopefully will happen more frequently: matchups on eye height.
So, in a sense, I’d answer your last question with “yes”. There’s two guys who are considered as talents, both got a “0” on their record, and now they clash although they’d have opportunities for much easier ways to move on. One of them will loose, and they don’t seem afraid of it. It’s exactly that kind of matchups I’m thrilled to happen more often.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
There’s two guys who are considered as talents
But, by who? I’ve seen both these guys fight. I’ve watched the gangly Fury punch himself in his own face, and generally make Jess Willard look like Michael Spinks. I’d pick regional melon farmer Chisora to lose against any guy in Ring’s top ten right now, and that ain’t exactly Murderer’s Row.
Fighters who revive benighted divisons aren’t regional fighting other localsfor some make-believe right to a championship bout. Fury and Chisora have fought a combined total of 126 pro rounds… COMBINED. They have a combined 28 fights under their belt. They are as green as grass and Wlad Klitschko would be the lawnmower. Fighting one of them would be like Larry Holmes fighting Marv Frazier or Lucien Rodriguez.
If this is a preview of how Wlad will select post-Haye opponents then the division is in for a very bumpy ride until he retires in my opinion.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I’m not saying that either Chisora or Tyson Fury would be a worthy challenger for a Klitschko. (Although I believe that Chisora might at least earn some credits for trying, whilst Fury would probably just be .. swept away.) But I like that the two are fighting, and I seriously belive that his fight might turn out to be an interesting one. It might easily be much more thrilling to watch than any Klitschko-fight of the last five years. And if the top – guys beneath the Klitschkos – Adamek, Haye, Solis, Povetkin, Boytsov, Helenius, Arreola, Chagaev, Dimitrenko, Chambers – will finally start fighting each other on a more regular basis, the division will be in a much better state than it was for a long time.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
And if the top – guys beneath the Klitschkos – Adamek, Haye, Solis, Povetkin, Boytsov, Helenius, Arreola, Chagaev, Dimitrenko, Chambers – will finally start fighting each other on a more regular basis, the division will be in a much better state than it was for a long time.
That part I understand. I’m just saying that it brings us back to reality: Who will pay for these TV fights? Or will they just be undercards for Wlad while he takes on no-hopers like Chisora? I guess I generally disagree with your main point here. Belts are worthless except as marketing tools to help sell fights. “World Titles” at stake are what goes on posters and promos. That’s why the first Haye fight fell apart… Haye wanted to snatch up the WBA title and make some money with some “World Title” fights of his own before getting in there with Wlad.
Unless you count the ludicrous “regular/super champion” thing the WBA does, I think that the marketability of heavyweight fights actually takes another hit when the brothers K hold all the belts. It makes it harder to sell non-title fights in the division like the ones you mention above. Not saying I think that’s a good thing, I just think it’ a real thing. Wlad and Vitali will have to take all-comers without eliminators to maximize profits for both themselves and their opponents. So, let the Arreolas and Povetkins and whoever step up to challenge. I don’t think the greenhorns like Chisora and Fury make the division any more exciting. They would probably squabble over the British title whether or not Klitschko was on the horizon.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Chisora – Tyson is certainly no good example of that idea I tried to verbalize. Chagaev – Povetkin is a better one.
But let’s take your example of the fight Haye vs. Valuev. Haye avoided the difficult encounter here to take the easy route to a world title. Now, there is no easy route anymore. If Haye was to continue boxing, and the Ks were consistent about not offering him another shot soon, which options would he have? He could go on fighting the like of Harrison (if he’d find more the like of him). Or he could try to make his way for another big shot. Öner, the promoter of Solis, already made efforts to promote Haye vs. Solis. That fight could be thrilling, and maybe not a huge (but certainly with an OK) payday for the fighters, but with a huge payday in sight which could be out of sight if they didn’t meet.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
We’ll see. I am perhaps a cynic, since we didn’t see much movement even when Chageav and Valuev owned the WBA portion of the title. Solis-Haye will never happen. Never, ever, ever. Oner talks a lot. At this point, it’s much worse than 50/50 that Haye will fight anyone not named Klitschko. There’s no upside and it won’t give him any more negotiating power than he has right now. The guy fights once per year as it is, and could probably get just as much by yammering about his little toe.
My point about belts is that they are sales tools. Haye went off to get a belt because he squeeze in a few more paydays and have a stronger hand at the negotiating table. It worked, too. If he was in the position he’s in now two years ago, he’d have given up a few million bucks.
As for Chageav-Povetkin, that is a fight between a barely active guy who Wlad mopped up on short notice and a guy who already squirmed out of two title fights. It’s also not what I would call an exciting styles matchup – stone-footed Chageav versus punchless Povetkin. Povetkin has wasted enough time with his career already. I don’t want to see him fight anyone except Wlad.
That goes for everyone in the top ten who hasn’t fought him yet, too. I don’t want to see “Helenuis-Chambers” or “Dimitrenko-Chageav.” “Arreola-Haye” might sell, and if Haye wants that I might be okay with it. This does not strike me as a particularly exciting round-robin crew, though. I think Wlad should make title defenses against the remaining top-tenners, knock over any pins that need to be knocked and then consider retiring. Fight Arreola, Povetkin and Botsov and then call it a career until someone interesting comes along. Leave dudes like Chisora and Fury alone. For now, they are just pure inventions of the British imagination.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
OK, I get that we got different points of view here. With WK beating Haye like he did, I gave up hope that there will be thrilling title-fights in the near future. The question about who is the king is definitely settled for now. And now I like to watch the pride of young lions sort it out between them. Yes, I’d be excited about Helenius-Chambers or Dimitrenko-Chagaev! And Povetkin taking on real fights again! Of what use would it be to throw him in the ring with a K to get feasted upon?
Also I don’t think that the Ks retiring now would be a good thing. I’d rather have them retire after being beaten, or – better – having been close to being beaten, like LL did. If they do retire now, it would be very difficult to take one of the pride seriously. If one of the youngsters would at least be close to beating a K, the legacy could be carried on.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Yeah we see it differently… but Chageav and Povetkin are not “young lions” lmao. On that we can surely agree. Baby-faced Povetkin is 31 years old, now, which makes it even more insane that he’s been off fighting nobodies and no-hopers for the last three years.
Of course, now he’s fighting for a “championship” to become the WBA regular champion. When that happens, what makes you so sure he won’t take on a few light touches and over the hill guys, carrying on the grand tradition that Valuev, Chageav, Ruiz, Holyfield and Haye helped cement over the last decade? I mean, I hope that doesn’t happen, but I feeling pretty cynical today.
Also I don’t think that the Ks retiring now would be a good thing.
If Wlad’s plan is to now cruise around feasting on the likes of Derek Chisora, then he should retire tomorrow, if he cares about his legacy. He’s been doing good work the last couple of years, taking on top-rated comp. The problem is that the top-rated comp was mostly terrible fighters. If he wants history to take his reign seriously, he’s got to stick to the gameplan of taking the trash down to the incinerator whenever possible. That way when they say he was king of a week era, the response will be “but he took all-comers.”
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Oh well. Maybe.. little lions? (No, wouldn’t fit for Dimitrenko.) Young lions fits at least comparatively. Or OK, let’s skip that lion-metaphor. Painting the picture of a kingdom was in my mind, too, but I’d have gotten stuck in that as well.
I think it wouldn’t take Povetkin far if he’d act as you indicate he might. Boxing-fans, and also the mainstream-fans, will know whom the WBA-crown belongs to. I don’t think this will sell well, particularly as Povetkin is not a big draw himself. Still, I see there are good reasons to believe that this “horror-vision” might well come true. Povetkin has proven before that he’s willing and able to avoid risk even at an unreasonably high price. But I prefer to hope for another development. There’s still some time to bury those hopes.
I’ve read people complain about that the Klitschkos take on only old and worn out fighters, and that if finally they’d get in the ring with a young, hungry, fresh fighter, they’d face big problems. A fight with Chisora would bring an answer to that. (And after WK dropped Chisora twice, I feel that it would only be fair to now give him the chance to get his beating.) Not that I’d really be interested to see that. Rather Arreola than that. And that would be topped by Povetkin or Boytsov.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Fighting Chisora was supposed to be part of the buildup to Haye. Once Haye signed, Chisora’s worth as an opponent vanished overnight. All’s fair in Love and Boxing. :)
I’ve read people complain about that the Klitschkos take on only old and worn out fighters.
I haven’t read that. I’ve read that they take on horribly inept fighters, small fighters, green fighters, punchless fighters, chinless fighters, armless and legless fighters, but I’ve never heard anybody complain that they hunt around for old guys.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I’m not sure if I ever want to have as much insights in the sport as you do, cause probably there’s not much choice left than but to become somewhat cynical about it.
Do you have an idea why there is so much need to dismiss and discredit the Klitschkos “out there”? Is it just for their status and popularity – I mean, would other boxers with a similar history face criticism comparable in the harshness and often the complete lac of substance – or do they attract it for another reason?
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I have my own ideas about that. Maybe I’ll save it for a post. I think maybe one of the biggest reasons is that heavyweight fighters are the ambassadors of the sport to casual fans, and casual fans want a good, intriguing story. To a degree, they also want weirdos, like Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, Ali, Marciano.
I personally think the Klitschkos have a very intriguing story (and a deeply weird one, especially considering the fact they are brothers.) They are also cultural icons, but for a culture that came up on the other side of the Iron Curtain. For the ex-Soviet and Soviet bloc nations they are iconic heroes and superstars. Here in the West, I think a lot of potential casual boxing fans are in tune with that story. They don’t get what’s interesting about a couple of Ukranian Soviet army brats taking over the heavyweight scene after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and doing ads for Hugo Boss. In a way, they are the voice of a Post Cold War generation, but from the other side.
I think I will try to write a few thoughts about this, because the need by a certain, mostly American and Anglo crowd to denigrate them has always bothered me a little. Like Scott says on occasion, it’s not their fault that the division doesn’t have a lot of good fighters.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"Here in the West, I DON'T think a lot of potential casual boxing fans are in tune with that story"
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Please do that writing, I’d love to get to know more about your point of view on this.
What you’ve revealed about your thoughts on this topic sounds very reasonable to me. But I don’t feel that this can explain the hate against the Klitschkos I frequently run across in boxing boards to a satisfying degree. To me it seems that this part of the story should rather cause some indifference, like “who cares about THEM guys?”.
Then of course, the situation in the US differs from that in Germany, as the Ks live and fight here, and there’s a lot of exposure, so it’s more difficult to be indifferent towards them. I sense much more hatred on the German boards. Which probably doesn’t tell much, because this place here seems special in many respects.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
But I don’t feel that this can explain the hate against the Klitschkos I frequently run across in boxing boards to a satisfying degree.
Hahah, well I think part of that is that this is the Internet, and the Internet is made of %100 pure Hatred.
Then of course, the situation in the US differs from that in Germany, as the Ks live and fight here,
Actually, I’m pretty sure Wlad lives in L.A., here in the U.S. And they both train here. And while I think nationalism and race may play into the occasion somewhat, I think that’s sometimes overstated.
Which probably doesn’t tell much, because this place here seems special in many respects.
Yeah, that’s true. It’s an oasis of sorts.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"Pretty sure VITALI lives here in LA" I mean to say.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
They surely travel a lot, having their political business going on in the Ukraine as well. I just had a look at their website – as their residence they name Kiev, Hamburg, LA (VK) and Kiev, Hamburg, Hollywood (WK). Their business, the Klitschko Management Group, is located in Hamburg. and they are very succesful in convincing the people here that somehow they are German. ;)
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Ah, Globalism
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yes, globalism.
I made several attempts to write a more in depth response to you, but it rapidly got so complicated, involving the Cold War, the Olympics, the dissolution of the USSR, etc., that it began to seem stupifying, even to me.
You really should write about this. There would be a lot of reaction.
I blame the Rocky films :D
I was going to argue against the post, but this year we will have seen Vitali v Solis, Wlad v Haye & Vitali v Adamek which are the best fights that could possibly been made to happen.
2011 has to be thumbs up for the Heavyweight division.
Which were your initial reasons to argue against it? The role of the Klitschkos? The general state of the division? Or are you skeptical if things are going to develop like I’ve been giving my optimistical prognosis they will?
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
It is pretty complicated. The Cold War, the Olympics, the displacement of of national peoples throughout the USSR, Glasnost, the revolutions in Eastern Europe, the opening of the world to “amateur” athletes trapped behind the Iron Curtain. There is a very compelling story behind the Klitschko story, but it can’t be summed up in a few sentences. They are part of a larger historical narrative, just like Louis and Schmelling were, and just like Ali and Fraizer were. They are men of their moment, and I think historians (especially with their bias towards heavyweights) will eventually come to see them that way.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
This will be a great post, jrok,
when you write it. I’m looking forward to it.
Yes. The Klitschkos are men of their time,
and part of a larger narrative.
Yes, they are. I know that all fighter, and in fact everyone in general, is the outgrowth of an entire history, but some of these personal histories coincide with greater, or at least broader, events.
One of our pool of posters here (and I apologize that I cannot remember who it was and give due credit) used the word “synedoche,” The Louis-Schmelling confrontation was just such an event. The Klitschko era is another.
I mean, in general I don’t want to see Wlad fight Chisora because the fight is meaningless and it gives ammunition to people who want to potshot Klitschko in the future. He only has so many fights left before Mother Nature takes over and he has to call it quits. I think it would be a shame waste those on the Dereck Chisoras and Tyson Fury’s of the world. They don’t seem to be hurting for money. Larry Holmes was stuck in a weak era too, but we would rather watch him fighting Renaldo Snipes and Gerry Cooney than Marvis Frazier and Leon Spinks.
Bad Left Hook
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Plus, honestly
I think Chisora will get beaten pretty well by Fury. 116-112 type scores at least.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I like your reasoning very much.
If I follow you, one doubled or “doppelgangered” (excuse the English bastardization of German), in the Klitschko brothers, if this continues for at least a while, would create only one goal or target for any contenders. Contenders, in turn, would be required to sort out amongst themselves who is the most deserving or able opponent, by fighting each other in order to gain ranking as contenders.
Suppose, however, that the #1, #2, #3, … , #10 contenders are still decided by multiple boxing organizations, so that there is still the current chaos. Will these rankings be determined by fiat of the Klitschkos and/or their promoters? Do you foresee any problems with this, or do you think that the integrity of the Klitschkos will prevent selectivity?
On the other hand, do you think that I have completely misunderstood your argument?
Wow.
“Doppelgangered” is beautiful (it’s nice sometimes to get to know that other German words than “Blitzkrieg”, “Panzer” or “Angst” made their way into English language).
Yes, you just nailed my vision of how and why the world of heavyweight divison might change for the better. And my hope is based on the believe that politics will change a little now. This will certainly be the case regarding the WBA: as WK is a unified champion (“super champion”), he will be granted 18 instead of the usual 9 month to defend the title against an obligatory (WBA-defined) challenger. This decreases the political influence of the organizations. Potential challengers will know that it’s not sufficient to have the organizations on their side, that they will have to offer way more than the influence of their promoters.
And my thoughts about the Klitschkos regarding this point are: They are certainly no saints who are willing to meet only the best opponent by a sportive point of view. But I did not sense yet that they are afraid to meet strong opposition (maybe they forgot how strong opposition feels like, however). They will probably take the fight that’s most interesting from a business-point of view. This might be met by a boxer who’s coming out succesfully of a high-level tournament and earned some hype. And it’s particularly those tournaments – or other kinds of eliminators – I’m looking forward to.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
That one was meant for DrRck
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
We can also say
“Ich bin ein Berliner,” and, if not too drunk, spell “Nietzsche.”
Your speculation that the Klitschkos may have “forgotten” what strong opposition feels like made me laugh, and I think it’s probably pretty close to the truth. Being a naif (another one of those foreign-type words), I think I trust them to be relatively dependable regarding their willingness to face opponents that would have general acceptance as worthy, and I also think that these fights would also generate the most significant business. “Tournaments” such as you envision are, as I see it, a bit like boxing used to operate here (allowing, of course, for the usual corruption), when there were just a few belts, everyone seemed to know who held them, and challengers lined up, sometimes repeatedly, for shots at titleholders.
I like the idea.
I doubt it helps much
If only because the Klitschko have already beaten all e best fighters. Sure, the losers might have to start actually fitting each other, but it could take years to build good, legitimate challengers at this point. I ink of e guys they haven’t beaten yet, and either they,ve been legitimately avoiding the Klitschkos anyway (Povetkin and Valuev) or just aren’t even close to being experienced enough to being legitimate contenders (Chisora, Fury, Helenius, Boytsov, etc.).
I do think too much is made of the lack of competition though. I ran through how I think Wlad would do against the all-time greats, and I’d pick him to roll over guys like Joe Louis, Foreman, Patterson, Walcott, Marciano, etc. too. There are only four or five guys all time I’d favor to beat him (Lewis, Holmes, Ali, maybe Frazier) and a few others I’d see as 50-50 (Tyson, Liston, his brother). The current crop is really no worse than the guys Tyson was destroying in the 80’s, or Ali in the 60’s, IMO.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Please excuse the iPad typos
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Given that the whole idea
is predicated on the assumption that there is a flood of genuinely capable athletes willing to make a living by choosing to be deliberately and repeatedly hit in the head and body for the purpose of causing damage (which in itself sounds just nuts as a goal in life), the proposal seems to make some sense.
I absolutely agree with your assessment of how Wlad might fare against former greats. I think he’d demolish Louis and Marciano, beat Walcott and Liston handily, murder Patterson (who was a fluke anyway), and edge Foreman.
Frazier would give him a terrible time, and I can’t say who I think would win; Holmes, would beat him with his combination of speed, slickness, and power; Ali would lose.
Tyson would have a real chance in the early rounds.
the assumption that there is a flood of genuinely capable athletes willing to make a living by choosing to be deliberately and repeatedly hit in the head and body for the purpose of causing damage
It really sounds nuts as you put it that way. But the will to take on danger and punishment in order to stand up for yourself, not give in and enforce your way in a more than tough game in my eyes seems to be a necessity for mankind which is incorporated in the sport of boxing in a very pure, archaic and beautiful way.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Are you by chance an existentialist,?
Nothing in your statement necessarily implies this, but I just wondered.
Hmm. I think what I got inside of an existentialist is triggered by this sport. I got some serious love for boxing, as going for weekly sparring sessions taught and teaches me a lot about myself. Probably this is an existentialistic experience for me, yes.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I’d love to see Frazier and WK fight! The master of chasing and getting in and inside against the master of playing and keeping the game at distance.
But I don’t consider fights of “loosers” (at least insofar as that only means boxers who couldn’t match a K) as generally not watchable. Instead, in general they should be more exciting than what we can get in terms of championship-fights at the moment. And having those guys clash could also help us to judge their individual and overall level. I mean, how can you tell how good David Haye really is at the moment? He fought weak competition at HW and then the best. Or how about Povetkin, Boytsov, etc.? I’d really like to know. And Povetkin taking on Chagaev is sth. to start with.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
One of the perennial and valid criticisms of (some) modern boxing that MMA fans level is that (some) boxers protect a 0-lose record. I hope I didn’t somehow imply that I hold the opinion that a lose is somehow an invalidation of a boxer’s worth, because I certainly do not think so. I think that most of us love best those fights in which there are no “losers,” even though someone ends up a loser, whether by KO or on points.
I think that most of us love best those fights in which there are no "losers," even though someone ends up a loser, whether by KO or on points.
That’s the rule for me. But there are exceptions. Sometimes I really want to see a fighter loose. David Haye is a very recent example.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I felt the same way.
But, now that he has lost, I can see his quality better, and would like to see him fight again, against someone more suited to him.
Yeah, I wanted him to seriously get lost. But now that the fight is over and a few days have passed, I do as well realize that it would be a very good thing if he’d stay around and get in the ring with opponents that are less inferior to him than Ruiz and less superior than a K. I’d just have to mute him on the promotional track. ;)
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
One of the main ideas of a combat sport,
like any other sport, is the real risk of loss; it doesn’t diminish the fighter, although in fighting, it is extraordinarily risky.
The Klitschkos are the winningest brother act in heavyweight boxing history with a MONSTER combined record. In a division where boxing’s biggest compete, they are the tallest. One is 6-foot-7, the other 6-foot-6. When they hit the scene, the floodgates opened and Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussian’s, and others from Eastern Europe made their presence felt—-many quickly winning world titles.
Books will be written about their boxing exploits as well as their other considerable achievements outside the ring. However, suffice it to say here that if Oscar De La Hoya was the most charismatic fighter of his time, the Klitschkos have become the most significant boxers of theirs— their impact being not only their influence on and dominance of the heavyweight boxing division, but also on their being the triggers that ignited the Eastern Euro boxing explosion.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Hey Boss Man, if you look a bit above in the thread you’ll find jrok revealing his plans to write a post about the perception of the brothers on the background of a historical perspective. Maybe you two should sit down together and work that out?
I do perceive the Ks as great ambassadors who are helping to connect east and west by their dedication to the sport, their ability to move in and adapt to different cultures, their integrity plus – imo – charismatic personality. Many see them in a completely different way though. Let’s hope that this new post is written soon so there’s some sound standing facts to debate upon.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I’m not sure if jrok actually revealed this plan, or if we’ve been collectively battering him into doing it. Either way, it will be a very tall order, but eminently worthwhile.
Oh, I don’t think we can force jrok into something, and he mentioned his thoughts on this matter before the discussion. But anyway, the initiation doesn’t seem that important to me as long as there’ll be the outcome (which I’m eagerly hoping he’ll find time and leisure for).
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Well, I did do this in my last book but I hate to admit it becuase everytime I mention one of my books, I get hammered, butchered, sliced, diced,
and beaten up.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Please
tell me the title of that book.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Ordered
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
It's not my best. Boxing is my Sanctuary is far better.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Ordered as well.
And prepare to get hammered, butchered, sliced, diced, and beaten up, should I come acress any doubtable grammatical construction inside.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Oh there are plent. But I was getting hammered for bringing up my three books
all the time. In fact, at last count, I have referred to them over 6, 078 times.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
And finally you are released
because, in the end, you found someone to buy and read them. ;)
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
I had no idea that you had written any books,
but I will certainly, like DrHenrik, get them.
I’ve written three, and am working on a fourth (equally unsuccessful, I’m sure).
Boxing is my sanctuary
certainly offers a unique perspective on boxing. Insights into american (boxing) culture from the late 40’s onward, great contributions to the list of must-have-seen-fights, very personal insights into a love for boxing. Plus it got a beautiful cover. Good investment.
What have you been writing about?
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Thank you very much for that. Currently I have at a publisher a book of True Crime Essays and Urban Noir.
I expect the editor to finsh with the conceptual editing in Septemebr and then get the work released in October. Traditional editors can be difficult but the prestige of having one is well worth it. There will be at least three boxing-related essays in it, one done by an ex-fighter and friend who has the gift, I wish I could write like him. I am excited about it but also worried about its reception. Many of the essay have a moral of sorts abd deal with such topius as pedaphilia, school-related violence, serial killings, suicide, race-fueld violence, and mob-related crimes. Lots of them take place in the Northeast an din and around Boston—but not all. Thanks for asking.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Thank you very much for that. Currently I have at a publisher a book of True Crime Essays and Urban Noir.
I expect the editor to finsh with the conceptual editing in September and then get the work released in October. Traditional editors can be difficult but the prestige of having one is well worth it. There will be at least three boxing-related essays in it, one done by an ex-fighter and friend who has the gift, I wish I could write like him. I am excited about it but also worried about its reception. Many of the essay have a moral of sorts abd deal with such topius as pedaphilia, school-related violence, serial killings, suicide, race-fueld violence, and mob-related crimes. Lots of them take place in the Northeast an din and around Boston—but not all. Thanks for asking.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
corrected
Thank you very much for that. Currently I have at a publisher a book of True Crime Essays and Urban Noir.
I expect the editor to finish with the conceptual editing in September and then get the work released in October. Traditional editors can be difficult but the prestige of having one is well worth it. There will be at least three boxing-related essays in it, one done by an ex-fighter and friend who has the gift, I wish I could write like him. I am excited about it but also worried about its reception. Many of the essay have a moral of sorts and deal with such topics as pedophilia, school-related violence, serial killings, suicide, race-fueled violence, and mob-related crimes. Lots of them take place in the Northeast an din and around Boston—but not all. Thanks for asking.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
The turth is the Klitschko's are their own worst enemy
I enjoy watching the Klitschko’s slowly dismantle fighters and crush their spirit, and that’s what they do 10/10 times. Both Klitschko’s enjoy beating a guy mentally more than physically and that’s what makes their fights boring to the casual fan. They have high KO % but they don’t look forward to ripping up opponent’s body and then smashing him in the face, smiling when they get tagged and firing back, simply put they don’t enjoy the physically combat of boxing. It doesn’t look like they want to hurt the other guy. I’d argue they do want to hurt the other guy; but it’s with their intellect instead of their punches, and that can be just as devastating to a fighter’s career.
In short, they may be too good for their own good.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’d attribute your observation stronger to Wladimir than to Vitali. VK sometimes shows that animalistic attitude in the ring which WK has this surprising lack of for a boxer at this stage, as when he seemingly wanted to jump on Odlanier Solis who didn’t survive the first round. Also beating up Sanders that badly seemed to be pure joy for him.
Sticking that much to their winning system certainly makes it difficult for them to win hearts (though there’s quite a number who appreciate and admire their tactical greatness). Anyway, they are quite polarizing figures – and isn’t this usually good for selling? There’s one group that wants their reign to continue, and another group that wants them to get beaten up. And for the non-biased true fan of the sport, they don’t offer hot excitement, but some cold beauty of the game.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Exactly this.
as when he seemingly wanted to jump on Odlanier Solis who didn’t survive the first round.
He got in Peters face after putting him through the meat-grinder as well, and even threw a light jab at Lewis after their fight too.
Vitali doesnt mind getting tagged and then returning. The fight against Sanders, like you said, is a perfect example of this. Wlad on the other hand, will go straight into safe mode if he gets tagged hard enough and will start clinch, like in the last round against Haye, and pretty much 90% of his fights.
I’ve never considered myself as a legend – just a simple man with heart.
It must have been a feast for Vitali. First he could pay back the heavy shots he took earlier in the fight. Second he could revenge his brother and restore the honour of the family. And all this by that kind of onslaught, taking away Sander’s strength, will, and hope bit by bit until he was rendered helpless and naked, to be protected from the ref from that demolition. A demolition as well intellectual as physical.
Yeah, the brothers really differ in the ring. Similar frame, different picture. But still they stand as one, and I love to see that, because I don’t see something like that often nowadays.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Haha right on point again my friend.
I loved the way you phrased this:
the brothers really differ in the ring. Similar frame, different picture. But still they stand as one, and I love to see that, because I don’t see something like that often nowadays.
Also how they support each other, and the way they carry themselves…you will never again see something like that in HW boxing again. We are lucky to see have seen the Klitschko bros dominate the last decade of HW boxing.
I’ve never considered myself as a legend – just a simple man with heart.
Actually, Sanders showed great heart in that fight and won a lot of respect. He was one
tough S.O.B.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
He sure was willing to take three blows to deliver one. And what blows he took and delivered! And he never looked dizzy. A bit like Rocky Marciano: You couldn’t hurt him, only crack him.
"Sure, there have been injuries and deaths in boxing – but none of them serious." Alan Minter
Yea Sanders' chin in that fight was not human.
Much respect to him. Went out on his shield. Just would have like to seen him take training a bit more seriously since the beginning, he coulda really been something, rather than that guy that upset Wlad and took a savage beating against Vitali.
I’ve never considered myself as a legend – just a simple man with heart.
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