America's Boxing Best: Who Can Follow Mayweather and Hopkins?
by Scott Christ on Aug 6, 2011 8:41 AM EDT
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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One of the consistent "complaints" I hear is that there is a dearth of top American fighters in today's boxing game, and when I really thought about it for more than a couple of seconds that I mostly dismiss, I think there's some validity to this.
I certainly don't think that American fight fans need Americans to be the top stars, but I don't think it's a stretch to say it does help. Manny Pacquiao has become incredibly popular here (and everywhere), but boxing fans have a long history of rooting for the hometown fighter, or the guy representing the country, the same as they root for their hometown sports team or their Olympic representatives or whatever else.
That led me to another idea, which was to rank the top ten American fighters, pound-for-pound. Though I don't currently rank Floyd Mayweather Jr in our weekly divisional rankings, he's active again and he's got to be ranked here.
10. Steve Cunningham (24-2, 12 KO, Cruiserweight)
Cunningham, 35, fights in a division that has never gained much traction in the United States, and he's only sparingly been featured on American TV. At this point, he wisely doesn't even have an American promoter, as he works with Sauerland Event, based in Germany, where the division is popular. His U.S. visibility is pretty low, and his biggest fight for American fans was probably his 2008 war with Tomasz Adamek, which aired on Versus.
9. Austin Trout (23-0, 13 KO, Junior Middleweight)
Trout, 25, is a really talented rising contender and titlist in the 154-pound division, but has had zero major push with American TV. His last two fights have been his biggest, and both were unaired in the States, as Trout went on the road to Mexico to beat Rigoberto Alvarez and David Lopez. He's got the goods in the ring, but so far he just hasn't made a dent on the American public.
8. Chad Dawson (30-1, 17 KO, Light Heavyweight)
Dawson, 29, has had good TV exposure via HBO and Showtime, but he hasn't become a draw either at the gate or on the air. His next fight on October 15 will be on HBO pay-per-view with Bernard Hopkins, but it's expected to flop, both because the fight doesn't figure to be exciting and because it's poor timing, sandwiched between Mayweather and Pacquiao PPV events. Dawson doesn't have the style or charisma to be a big star, but he's a good fighter.
7. Victor Ortiz (29-2-2, 22 KO, Welterweight)
Ortiz, 24, is young, exciting, and though I don't personally enjoy his forced personality much, I'm not the greatest judge of what the American public will like in that regard, and I can see Ortiz becoming a major star. Though he's as hot as he's ever been coming off of his April win over Andre Berto, he's about to get the first really huge push of his career with his September 17 fight against Floyd Mayweather. He's a sizable underdog, but what if he pulled off the win? It would be boxing's biggest upset in a long time, and would make Ortiz a huge star. Even if he loses, he's got potential to be a long-term star so long as he makes for good fights. His style is great to watch.
6. Robert Guerrero (29-1-1, 18 KO, Junior Welterweight)
Guerrero, 28, hasn't broken through as a star yet, but he's a very good fighter who is itching to get bigger and better fights to up his profile. Guerrero has a very likable personality and story, and he's easy to root for because he's just a nice guy who can fight and seems to desperately want to take serious challenges. He hasn't fought above lightweight yet, but that will change in a few weeks when he moves up to junior welterweight to fight battle-hardened Marcos Maidana, in what will be Guerrero's first HBO main event since February 2008 when he faced Jason Litzau. Guerrero should be easy to promote, and also has the Mexican-American thing. Aaand, here's another one...
5. Brandon Rios (28-0-1, 21 KO, Lightweight)
Rios, 25, is a star in the making. He could be the new Arturo Gatti. I feel like I might have him higher than many would, but love him or hate him, Rios can fight his ass off, and I think he's better than his brawler reputation. Yes, he brawls, but he's also a solid boxer whose defensive skills are overlooked, and he puts punches together in combination, with power in both hands. Rios, like Ortiz (a former training partner and press rival), is Mexican-American, which helps promote him, too. I think this guy is one of the key cogs in boxing's future. He's going to lose some fights, probably, but I don't think he'll lose that many, and it's going to take special fighters to beat him. It's all enough to make you wish that that awful video last year with trainer Robert Garcia and gym-mate Antonio Margarito had never come out, but Rios, to his credit, has been doing his best to make up for that tremendous error in judgment.
4. Timothy Bradley (27-0, 11 KO, Junior Welterweight)
Bradley, 27, is ... well, it's hard to gauge his value right now. I doubt any promoter would turn down signing him, but he's hurt his reputation greatly by pulling out of a fight with Amir Khan, and really even worse, continually making himself sound bad when he talks about why he did it. He's not even really bringing up the valid reason of wanting to leave his promoters, who are now suing him. It's just a mess, and for a guy who can't draw a crowd, it's just not good. Bradley is a really good fighter, and has proven himself in the ring, but he's really not a star yet, and is doing himself no favors right now either. Lucky for him, a lot of these issues are easily corrected by a good promoter. Before all this, he did his talking in the ring, and he can do that again.
3. Andre Ward (24-0, 13 KO, Super Middleweight)
Ward, 27, is sort of like Bradley or Dawson, in that he's good, but not the easiest guy to promote. None of them have particularly exciting styles, aren't big punchers, and aren't the most charismatic. But of the three, I think Ward has the most potential to be a bigger star. It's doubtful he'll ever be a superstar fighter or huge draw, but being another Bernard Hopkins-level star is certainly possible, and right now he's on his way.
2. Bernard Hopkins (52-5-2, 32 KO, Light Heavyweight)
Hopkins, 46, is the fighter who refuses to go away. Not only does he still fight at the absurd of age 46, but he's the legitimate world champion at light heavyweight. He's a Hall of Fame-bound fighter who is known to the mainstream after years of major fights, many of which he wasn't supposed to win and generally did. Bernard is one of a kind.
1. Floyd Mayweather Jr (41-0, 25 KO, Welterweight)
Mayweather, 34, isn't getting any younger, and doesn't keep the schedule we wish he did. But there's no question that Floyd is the best American boxer on the planet, and he has been for years now. The only guy on this list even remotely close to him in terms of greatness is Hopkins, and no one is close to the star that Mayweather is today. Truthfully, he's America's only superstar boxer, and one of only a few fighters who can consistently draw good crowds in the States, and one of only two who can be counted on to sell major numbers on U.S. pay-per-view.
Other Notables
We mentioned the fact that Ortiz, Guerrero, and Rios, as Mexican-Americans, are easy to promote, because the Mexican portion of the American boxing audience is just huge. With that said, both Saul "Canelo" Alvarez and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr are becoming major stars in a hurry. Both drew good numbers in their last HBO fights (1.4 million for Chavez, 1.5 million for Alvarez), and can draw a house. And of course you also have Manny Pacquiao, Miguel Cotto, and a few others who can draw in the States, but aren't American-born.
How big of a factor do you think this is? Does the lack of American-born star fighters play a major role in boxing struggling to make major waves more than a few times a year? And who do you think has the best chance among the younger guys to become a possible superstar fighter?
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I don’t know if other people see it, but there’s a background on this site promoting the Evans vs. Ortiz fight and Evans, in that picture, looks just like Cuba Gooding Jr.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
amazing resemblance—clone-like.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
show me the "kwan"!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I’m sure the lack of an American-born star fighters has hurt the sport’s popularity here, but there are so many other problems that it’s hard for me to tell which ones have hurt more than the others. Even if Ward wins the Super Six or Bradley unifies the titles at 140, I don’t see either of those guys suddenly receiving a whole lot of coverage, despite their Americanness. I guess complaints about lack of top American boxers in my experience largely come from people who aren’t even in positions to know who top boxers are in the first place.
Of the next generation, I guess Ortiz or Rios is most likely to become a big star simply for stylistic reasons. I don’t really think they’re anywhere near the most talented of this bunch, but most of the other young guys on the list don’t exactly make the most exciting fights in the world and don’t really have the personalities to compensate for that a la Floyd. That being said, even with Ortiz and Rios, it’s still kind of difficult to see them becoming stars. Ortiz can certainly play the Oscar role when the cameras are on, but it’s very easy for me to imagine him being completely demoralized after the Mayweather fight. Rios might not last long enough to really cross over with his style, especially if he ends up in the ring with one of the big punchers at 140 (plus his personality probably doesn’t win over too many fans).
Yeah I can’t really tell yet which way Rios will go with fans who might get to know him that don’t yet. He’s gaining more and more confidence, and to be 100% honest, I don’t think he’s a bad guy, but he’s a natural asshole sort of a personality. He’s just kind of a dick. I know that sounds like I mean it in a bad way, but I don’t really. I’m just not sure if he could be cast as the hero unless he finds something like Gatti did, the AC fanbase that loved him.
I struggle to think of deeper fighters who might be stars, too. I like Jose Benavidez a LOT, and Phoenix is pretty clearly an underutilized boxing market, so maybe he could become a big name. But he’s really young, so who knows what happens there?
Someone always comes along to replace the last big stars, but right now it sure seems like there could be a rough patch between the major draws. Manny and Floyd aren’t getting younger, and unless one of them loses to an up-and-comer (which would create the superstar), I’m not sure where the next one comes from. But then I didn’t expect Manny would be what he is now, either.
What about international guys who could become big stars in the States? Globalization of boxing is the big thing to me anyway. Can Khan be that sort of guy? Donaire if he were to keep moving up in weight? Sergio, even in the short term (given his age and apparent lack of desire to fight forever)?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I know it’s perfectly ridiculous, but good looks always make a big difference in the US (and likely everywhere else). It’s not hurting anything at all that Floyd, a truly great boxer, is also a very pretty boy—the whole bad-boy/money-walks act could never have worked had he been born a zit-faced mug. A likable personality is a good thing to have too, Arreola gets by being the exact opposite of Floyd, a totally likeable zitface mug, clown-type guy, couldn’t win hearts and minds any other way. Khan is goodlooking, so that could help get him over (his personality is Pat Boone in boxing gloves, but some people love that). Ortiz is goodlooking enough, in a baby-faced way,his personality doesn’t bother everyone and seems like it would have mainstream appeal.
RE global possiblities, Canadians are usually welcome stateside, at least two of whom might be worth considering—if Bute makes the cut vs the better Six fighters, and if Lemieux gets over his loss and progresses (I’m not too worried), both of them are fan friendly—Bute has plenty of personality—and both are star-face types who could expand their base south of the border if they cared too. I think Bute will achieve that kind of stardom, or at least could—good boxer, lots of personality, very goodlooking, also in a baby-faced way. Pascal is pretty too, but personality is average at best, and I don’t think he’s a good enough boxer. Piers Cote, too small probably.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Someone always comes along to replace the last big stars, but right now it sure seems like there could be a rough patch between the major draws. Manny and Floyd aren’t getting younger, and unless one of them loses to an up-and-comer (which would create the superstar), I’m not sure where the next one comes from. But then I didn’t expect Manny would be what he is now, either.
Yeah I mean besides the talent pool problems surrounding future US names, there’s also a big question as to how any promising fighter could ever hope to become a star in the first place in the current climate. Mayweather and Pacquiao really only reached superstar status after fighting Oscar. This isn’t to denigrate their accmplishments or make it sound like they had no fan bases before that fight; it just really seems like there aren’t very many ways of getting someone to that level short of beating someone already there. Someone like Mike Jones might be in the best position to become a future star simply because he’s in the same weight class as those guys and might be able to catch one of them during their inevitable declines. It probably also helps that he’s with Top Rank, who don’t quite have the history of having prospects go up in flames the way Golden Boy has recently.
What about international guys who could become big stars in the States? Globalization of boxing is the big thing to me anyway. Can Khan be that sort of guy? Donaire if he were to keep moving up in weight? Sergio, even in the short term (given his age and apparent lack of desire to fight forever)?Khan will really be the test case here since he’s obviously one Golden Boy’s crown jewels. The numbers for the Judah fight didn’t end up being as bad as the early attendance at the fight may have indicated and the TV ratings were actually pretty good, but it’s also clear that he’s not yet a must-see attraction in the US. I feel like there’s a lot of exciting fights he can be involved in and his style is somewhat fan-friendly, so it’s definitely plausible. That being said, I’m also inclined to wonder whether anything short of a Mayweather fight will be sufficient to really push him over the edge.
Donaire’s prospects are unfortunately constrained by his size in my opinion, and I don’t think Martinez has anywhere near enough time to become a big star.
Globalization is the key.....
Let’s face it….boxing thrives in poor, impoverished countries. The U.S., despite it’s S&P Credit rating just ain’t that anymore. Given some exposure Pong, Joyi, the Kameda Brothers, Toshiaki Nishioka, Hugo Cazares, and several others could be big stars. How cool would it be if HBO or Showtime jumped on televising Jackie Nava vs. Ana Maria Torres III? HBO and Showtime need to think outside the box and look beyond promoting just U.S. Fighters.
I certainly think that a relative lack of American glam fighters hurts the American fan base.
Sports is always an “us vs. them” kind of thing, whether it’s team or individual, and I think the US, for various reasons (including but not limited to geographic isolation, no small factor), has in particular taken this view of its role in the world, and it influences attitudes in a great many spheres.
In every era of boxing, there have been great fighters from countries other than the US, from Latin America and Western Europe (more on this below). American audiences by and large appreciated them, I think, because there were always American fighters not just in the mix but at or near the top, and this allowed domestic fans to be generous. Add to this the fact that virtually all types of sports have changed, from the potential pool of talent attracted to it by socio-economic factors, the revolution in the nature of media and coverage, and the economics of sports themselves, and, well, the world have shifted.
A major change has, to me, been in the upsurge of Eastern European fighters, and this is I think significant. These guys, again in all sports, represented the “bad guys” from 1917 until 1989, and we saw them only once every 4 years as steroid-saturated representatives of the Communist menace.
This has changed, but what we are seeing now, at least in boxing, are the results of a very different tradition of training and style: they don’t fight, act, or talk the way we like or are used to. I also think that American boxing fans, like the American public in general, is struggling to come to grips with a new world, a global perspective on just about everything (except possibly scientific research, which has always been international). This is a big, big adjustment, and I suspect that the less-than-hardcore boxing fan just doesn’t feel comfortable with this.
Sorry about the long-windedness of this post. It was written on impulse, and I considered deleting it, but then decided to send it off to see what reaction, if any, it gets.
. . .American boxing fans, like the American public in general, is struggling to come to grips with a new world, a global perspective on just about everything. . .
It’s happening fast, though—cyberspace speeds up globalization immeasurably, the foreign media translatable right on your desktop, etc. People here watch soccer now in big bunches, never used to, mostly Eurostars. Nadal of Spain became a big international star. Everybody knows who Manny Pacquaio is, I can’t remember another non-US boxer who achieved that level of fame stateside. Obviously, this is mostly because he’s an amazing boxer with Freddy Roach at his side, but it is also in no small part because his huge Filipino fanbase pumped the internet something amazing (more than 3,000 people, everyone of whom had to sign up to do it, voted for Manny on SC’s recent poll). Yesterday, just because I could, I watched Ameth Diaz (vs Lenny Zappavigna) lay the ghost of Ji Hoon Kim in a match live from Australia with my morning coffee. You just didn’t have those options most of our lives, and they change everything.
When you consider that there’s really only one huge US boxing star (Floyd), and consider the resurgent popularity of boxing here in the states, that’s an indication that globalization is sinking in faster than we think, imo. Because he’s not fighting enough to be the only, or any longer the most important, reason for the resurgence—that’s mostly Manny, and the general accessiblilty of fights and fighters worldwide.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
As you say, the spread of nearly instantaneous access to half the world in intimate detail, even as the internet itself is drawing closer itself to a major revolution, sure is happening fast. And as your examples illustrate, there are really no words to describe this phenomenon yet.
I could go on, but topics like politics and the economy are not appropriate here except perhaps in passing, and I’ve already done that.
Meanwhile, I’m going to go kill myself over the use of the singular in that statement you quoted. But, I’ll be back as soon as I’m done.
Good list, but Rios is a brawler and he blocks punches with his face. Ortiz and Trout should be in front of him, but still a good list.
by 36_chambers_ofdeatH on Aug 6, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
Donaire also is Filipino-American — he moved here at age 11. So I think he qualifies as “American” for purposes of this list, albeit not American-born.
And he strikes me as having a lot of star potential — he fights in an electrifying style, and he can easily be cast as a “next Manny Pacquiao!” sort by the lazy marketer.
The big problem is that there are no American HW’s on that list. The casual boxing fan likes the big boys…the so called “baddest man on the planet”.
And today, he’s nowhere to be found………..except maybe on the gridiron.
the casual fan likes the big boys. . .
I don’t think that’s true anymore except for black and/or white, US-born citizens, soon to be outnumbered by Hispanic and Asian citizens both natural and naturalized, who couldn’t care less about the big boys. Watching heavyweights fight is like watching elephants fight, only boring, to most people either under 50 or of smaller-statured ethnicity, seems to me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I think an American heavyweight star — a real one, not just a decent fighter like Arreola, Chambers, Thompson, etc. — would be really, really good and a big deal. But I also think that it’s going to become more and more of a rarity. A lot of these guys are going to go into MMA now, too, in addition to football and basketball and other sports that have been poaching what may or may not have been potential heavyweight boxers for years.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
i just don’t think it’s going to happen, and though it would be a fine thing if it did, I don’t think it’s that important either. Whether or not it would be a big deal, that ship has sailed. And consider, one of the biggest PPVs of the year in the US will be Pac vs Marquez, neither of them big, neither of them American. And it’s really big.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I agree with that, especially taking into consideration the age demographic and the fact that we’re talking about the fighting arts.
Over the past 10 or 11 years, I’ve had a number of causal conversations about fighting arts with the students at my University. Virtually none of them have even heard the names Pacquiao or Mayweather, or any other names of boxers, but even the self-described non-fans of fighting recognize a host of MMA names.
MMA is simply the fighting genre that appeals to young fans. It helps significantly that these young people also view it as likely to be highly effective in an actual fight (these people are testosterone-saturated), and that they expect that any opponent they would be likely to face in a street fight will have some familiarity with MMA techniques. This perceived practicality, I strongly suspect, is what created many boxing fans in earlier eras.
Not to mention
Two of the last great stars in boxing included Oscar and Sugar Ray Leonard, neither being a heavyweight. Both of who carried US boxing fore some significant time.
I don’t think size is the biggest issue. But I definitely agree that looks and personality play an enormous factor.
The first most important factor however is a fan friendly style
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I think the distinction of “American boxer” has become less clear as a concept, and I think the future of American boxing, at least in the short and medium term (who knows in the long term), is probably with American citizens of minority descent. Take for example, Puerto Rico. Puerto Ricans are all American citizens, and there are now more Puerto Ricans living in the United States than in Puerto Rico. The majority of people who self-identify as Puerto Rican also self-identify as Americans. Miguel Cotto’s last ten fights or so have all been in the United States proper, and that’s where most of the money is spent. The demarcation between Puerto Rican and “American” is a foggy one.
While this might be the most clear example, you could make a similar case for many other ethnicities, There are more Poles living in Poland than in the United States, but when you count all American of Polish descent, the numbers become more equitable. Financially, it is more profitable for Adamek to fight in the U.S. most of the time, and most of the people who go to see his fights are American citizens. Polish Americans too identify as both Polish and American. Identity is often a hybrid thing, and this factor should be considered in conversations like this.
When I go to Queens for Thai food (the best Thai restaurants outside of Thailand are in Queens, NYC), I walk through a Pinoy neighborhood where I don’t hear any English spoken. I don’t know how many people living in the United States identify as both Philipino and American, but I do know the number is growing and will continue to grow.
Then there’s the example of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. I wonder what percentage of American boxing fans are Mexican-American. I bet the number would be pretty high. Then there are the vast numbers of undocumented Mexican citizens living in the U.S. who will likely live hear the rest of their lives, as will their children, who will be American citizens legally and by birth. Again, the distinction becomes less clear the closer you look at it.
I wonder what percentage of American boxing fans self-identify as both American and something else? I wonder if that number is higher than the number of American boxing fans, mostly American of mixed Euro descent or African Americans, who identify only with the concept “American.”
I won’t even get into the fact that for many people in the world, the concept of “America” includes the entire Western Hemisphere, and “Americans” as we usually think of it, are thought of as people "from the United States (or just gringos), throughout South America. When I was in Brazil recently, I had some interesting conversations about the concept of what “America” as opposed to “United States” should mean.
Anyway, my main point here is that the concept of what it means to be American has become internationalized, and I wonder how much sense it makes to think of the concept of an “American fighter” the same way we one did.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
I mean, I know a lot of the people who visit this site have thought about this kind of stuff,
and Scott, your post sort of seems to reflect these changes too, but I do think it’s worth keeping in mind that the concept of “American boxing” and isn’t what it used to be. Personally, I’m not sure how important the much ballyhooed topic of the lack of emergent American stars really is anymore.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Yeah I’m not sure either, and wanted to see what y’all thought. Usually I’ve basically dismissed it. I don’t really care where anyone is from originally.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I don’t really care where anyone is from originally.
Me neither, as long as they’re not from Jersey.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
“I’m not sure how important the much ballyhooed topic of the lack of emergent American stars really is anymore.”
That may be, because except for this thread, as a collective response to an opinion piece which deliberately posed this very question, I hardly if ever see the matter raised here. But this is the last place to come to in order to assess the importance of this consideration on … well, who exactly?
I know that somebody out there used to write articles bemoaning the death of American boxing, especially with reference to the dearth of American heavyweights, because I used to see them elsewhere. I imagine it’s still a burning issue for some people, but like everything else about the US, every opinion will have a representative pocket somewhere.
Yes. At the heart of this is exactly what constitutes, in the eyes of the “American fanbase,” an "American boxer. " And, as you suggest in your last sentence, how "American " is even defined.
Like (I imagine) many people on this site, my parents came from very distant parts of the world (my father from Sweden, my mother from Italy). My father identifies himself simply as American; my mother identifies herself as Italian-American. In addition, my wife is Chinese, from Hunan, and is a legal citizen of the US, and we talk a great deal about how one of the central strength of this country is that so many of its citizens (and non-citizen residents) come from everywhere else in the world. Yet, when she says something like “He/she is an American,” she actually means a Caucasian citizen even though she considers herself a citizen as well (and hates with a passion almost everything about China).
This rapidly becomes a terribly complex topic: who is perceived as an “American boxer,” and by whom?
This threatens to open up a can of worms is the discussion continues.
Fortunately, it’s all Scott’s fault.
Fortunately, Scott can delete what he doesn’t like, but none of this is going in the wrong direction yet. I think it’s nice insight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Please tell me where these good Thai restaurants are
I’ve been missing good Thai food since I moved away from Wheaton. Lotus of Siam is good, but it’s also not cheap.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Sripraphai is still the best, and it’s cheaper than Lotus of Siam.
Email me, and we’ll do a double date with our mutual better halves.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
What about that shoulder rollin’ dude who has a big win on that Jason Litzu guy from Minnesota at featherweight? Not saying I’m the biggest fan, but he’s good, and he’s American. Bradley and Ward do it for me. How about Mike Jones? Or Arroela? Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Broner seems to be building up a base quickly
Still not quite sure why people like Broner and not Paris, but whatever.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Great list
I particularly appreciate Austin Trout being up there, despite his positive weed test.
I think maybe the community here is jaded on some of the guys that have been “exposed” of late, but still carry quite a bit of caché in the boxing world. Guys like Andre Dirrell, Andre Berto, Devon Alexander, and Paul Williams are much more the standard bearers for American boxing than some of the others listed.
I think most people are quite high on Dirrell’s future. Dude is injured and hasn’t fought in a good long time. Also his one good win over AA isn’t looking as good as it once was. I personally think that Dirrell wiped the floor with Froch but he’ll never get full credit for that one.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
Agreed
I thought he should have taken a pretty lopsided decision against Froch.shame that hometown judging gets in the way. Any word on whether the Demers fight was officially delayed til September? It was rumored last I heard.
Berto’s record is ridiculously soft given his exposure. Paul Williams looks done to me. Devon Alexander has legitimately lost his last three fights. Dirrell is simply not a personal favorite but if he were active he’d probably (?) be here, depending on how he had looked against Andre Ward.
Also Trout and the WBA got that test thrown out due to improper protocol. I cannot find a big enough winking emoticon, but I also don’t exactly see marijuana as a performance-enhancer.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
But Berto would at least jump Steve Cunningham with a win over Zaveck on 9/3, because I actually think Zaveck is a pretty good fighter.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I appreciate the solid response.
I defer to a lot of you guys on here who follow things more closely than I. Admittedly, I can speak a lot more confidently about technique, training, and tactics than I can about specific bouts and fighters.
I hear you on Williams, but I’m not quite ready to call him “done”. Granted, the Sergio KO, Cintron debacle (though not really PW’s fault), and BS Lara decision haven’t exactly made his reputation all that glowing.
I agree on Alexander. When he gets a win outside of St. Louis, then we can talk about him again. I’m just not willing to give up on a guy that’s only 24.
The only knock on Dirrell, in my opinion, is his extended layoff due to injury. Granted, it’s a sizable knock.
As for Berto, I guess time will tell. I agree that Zavec is a solid opponent. I thought the Quintana win said something, but Quintana stepped up in weight I think…also not sure how solid his rep was.
I guess I was referring more to name recognition, and you were referring to legit prospect status. I don’t really disagree. Call them honorable mentions perhaps.
I think that name recognition to the general sports public here would come with some sort of compelling human-interest background story that would suit the morning TV news/tabloid programs, or something that might serve as a showcase.
So, for instance, Guerrero, because of his loyalty to his wife during her terrible time (we’re collectively scared to death of it happening to us); Hopkins, because of his success at such a decrepit advanced age (Foreman had the media falling all over him after Moorer); Ortiz, because he’s about to fight American boxing’s ground zero as far as attention goes.
One more thought (yeah right): The story that doesn’t seem to have any legs left is the one about growing up poor, with a single mother, being in a gang, being shot multiple times, etc., not because this is insignificant, but because it’s so common that I think a lot of people are desensitized to it. In the pre-internet era, it made for good copy, even though huge numbers of people came from just such a background. Now, we know that.
Pacquiao seems to be a counter-example, because he gets so much general press apparently because of just such a background. But, being the news junkie that I am, I think that I saw nothing about him in the popular press until he won his Congressional race. Then, his astonishing boxing history, coupled with that rise from poverty to political life, and his charitable activities, all came to light, and made him noteworthy.
In Pacquiao's case
you also have to take into account that Phillipino poor is another world from American poor.
American is one thing but English Speaking is another. American fans can get around a foreign born or fighter of foreign descent but they must speak English to be superstars in our culture.
No matter how much exposure we as Americans create and derive from cyberspace, we are still awful in embracing anyone who fails to speak our principal language, English.
It can be pigeon English, bad English or even God awful English to start but to reach superstardom here a boxer better learn it fast. Otherwise, the average Joe can never get to identify, know or love the guy.
Manny made the leap. He beat Oscar and never stopped. He learned a funny (to us) charming pigeon at first that conveyed his charm in early interviews (eg." I was just doing my job. Just wanted to make the fans happy" etc.)
Cotto has tried and it will help going forward, more in business and less so in the ring as I suspect the best part of his careers came before his English.
Then…as Boxanne said….throw in some good looks, a dash of personality, a fan friendly style and the promotional tools of today’s media and voila.
A new star is born.
Then it is up to him to maintain it. That is what separates the supers from the stars. Sustained energy in winning in an exciting way over a long stretch. Pavlik failed. So have others.
Winning is not everything but it is essential over the arc of a long career especially after your star has risen.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Regarding the language issue, what about Yao Ming, or that short run of Japanese baseball players with essentially no English (I don’t follow baseball, so I have no idea if the latter is still occurring)?
I’m not sure it’s a language issue, although I may obviously be wrong.
It can be pigeon English, bad English or even God awful English to start but to reach superstardom here a boxer better learn it fast. Otherwise, the average Joe can never get to identify, know or love the guy.
That’s so true. It’s always true—nobody gets far without English in America, no matter how many people speak the old-country tongue in the US.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I don't think the lack of American stars is the biggest problem
There have been a number of good, long threads on the site since I’ve been coming here discussing the biggest problems for the sport. I won’t try to re-post my list now. Most here are all to well aquainted with such problems anyway.
But I will say this: The powers in the sport should take a long term, step by step approach to increasing boxing’s popularity. The first big goal should be to make it just as popular as tennis and golf. I suppose in some countries it already is, but not in the U. S., which is important. If this was attained, the next step would be to make it more popular than those two sports. I don’t think it can again get into the top 3 in the U.S., but, if there was a real plan that was adhered to, it could be much more popular – and profitable – than it is now. This would have an effect on the interest future American athletes would have in choosing the sport. Of course, such a growth-plan would have to include cleaning up a lot of the corruption we’re all complaing about all the time, so maybe it will never happen. But it could.
As for your list, Ward and Ortiz seem to have the best potential to be future stars. I would guess that Ward will lose less than Ortiz, and I also see some of the obstacles to stardom for each of them mentioned by others. I will watch the Rios developements with interest. I can’t help wondering, had he taken better care of life outside the ring, if we’d be well into the Kelly Pavlik era of American boxing. To a lesser extent, I wonder the same about Mike Alvarado. Is it to late for him? As for up-and-comers, I’d hopefully add Mikey Garcia.
Danny Garcia? Seth Mitchell?
Oh, and as for international guys who could become big stars in the states
Sergio Martinez should absolutely be that guy. His promoter – and to be fair, I wouldn’t expect much better of the other big promoters were they in his place – and his network(s) seem to be blowing the opportunity by waiting around for the big fight rather than cleaning out his division(s) to build his rep with those who aren’t already excited about him.
by geraldmcgrew on Aug 6, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Boring boxers
I dont care how many talented American boxers up and coming there are, none on that list will draw in the American public and truly bring back American interest in the sport. the top 4 boxers on the list are too boring. You need more excitement like a Gatti. They need to be the total package though and thats where Gatti suffers, he simply wasnt skilled enough to be a superstar, and eventually the novelty wore off when his losses piled up. In this day and age, you need another Mike Tyson to bring back the
And that Adrian Broner kid is another one that will never make it big. Timothy Bradley is too much a good guy and also doesnt have the power punching ability that will draw in Americans. The only reason why Americans pay attention to Floyd is is controversial lifestyle outside the ring and undefeated record. If he had a 1 on that loss column, no one will give a damn about him.
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