Manny Pacquiao Says Mayweather Knockout of Ortiz Was Legal
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 2:56 PM EDT
in Boxing News Analysis
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Floyd Mayweather Jr's greatest press rival is, at least to some degree, in his corner in the debate about last night's fight with and knockout of Victor Ortiz. Pacquiao had this to say to the Philippine Star:
"Very poor sportsmanship," said the Filipino pound-for-pound champion in the aftermath of Floyd Mayweather’s controversial knockout of Victor Ortiz in Las Vegas yesterday.
Pacquiao said he didn’t see anything illegal with what Mayweather did because he thought that the referee, Joe Cortez, had already ordered the fight to continue.
"It was not illegal," he said.
I think this is the exact stance a lot of people have. It was legal, and it was poor sportsmanship and at least kind of a cheap shot. Some have no problem with it, some are blaming referee Joe Cortez for not being totally in control (not new), but at this point I don't think anyone is totally blaming Mayweather, and they really shouldn't be, at least in my opinion. Legal's legal.
Freddie Roach, Pacquiao's trainer, has a slightly different take, the one that focuses more on Cortez:
"The referee was still talking to someone at ringside. And I didn’t see him [say] ‘box’ like they always do. I think he lost control," said Roach.
I earlier gave Cortez more blame than I think he deserves now, but as our own Andrew Fruman and many others have pointed out very well, and I agree, Cortez is not blameless here, and this is not his first rodeo with a controversial fight ending. Again, if it were Tony Weeks or Kenny Bayless, does this happen? It might, but probably not exactly like this.
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I think that once a referee calls time in, he has to focus on the fight, because there are in the ring two guys who are trying to hurt each other.
Cortez should have been paying attention, or at least should have positioned himself between Ortiz and Mayweather in order to keep control.
The referee should the dominant presence in the ring, even if not the most conspicuous.
Yeah, another thing that was a problem with this same thing in mind was right after the headbutt, when Cortez was taking a point and all that, Ortiz just wandered away from him and went over to hug on Mayweather and all this. Cortez basically just allowed this to happen, which was a dumb thing to do. They could have started swinging right there while he was eight feet away.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
And unfortunately, with the way the NSAC works (and state ACs in general),
Cortez will be reffing another big fight in no time.
At some point, however valuable they may remain, the elderly do become unable to hold physically demanding jobs.
I don’t mean this sarcastically. Refereeing boxing requires cognitive acuity and sharp physical reflexes; it’s a physical job, and I’m sure it’s very difficult.
I’m nearly 60, and in very good physical condition (marathons, martial arts, running up 14-storey buildings, etc.). But I would never referee a fight. I might get someone killed.
Kenny Bayless is 61 and doesn’t have these problems, but when I (this year) learned that Kenny Bayless is 61, I also almost crapped myself. He’s a freak.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Kenny Bayless misses some things too
Remember the phantom Knockdown that he gave Mosley against Pacquaio?
And then when Pacquaio told him"No, he pushed me" Bayless, angrily and loudly(like a boot camp seargeant): YES, YES, THAT’S A KNOCKDOWN.
He’s had his slipups also
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
Remember the phantom Knockdown that he gave Mosley against Pacquaio?
Yes, no referee is perfect. However Cortez seems to make notable mistakes in almost all of his big fights.
And then when Pacquaio told him"No, he pushed me" Bayless, angrily and loudly(like a boot camp seargeant): YES, YES, THAT’S A KNOCKDOWN.
Yes, he took control of the fight. He also later admitted his mistake and apologized to Pacquiao.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The restart could have been done differently by another ref, but that isn’t going to change either fighters’ actions. Ortiz tried to hug/slash apologize right after the fight was stopped, and again while the ref was deducting the point, a different restart wouldn’t change him trying again.
The only way I think it could end differently is if the ref had brought them to the center and asked them to touch gloves before restarting the fight (and I’m not sure if that ever happens in real life, or where i got that idea from.)
I’ver seen lots of moments of confusion and one of the reasons we dont have sucker punches that often is because usually everybody, no matter the rules, waits for the opponent to be ready.
Imagine figthers conducting themselves like Mayweather. We would have lots of suckers punchers every other night.
Imagine if every fighter conducted themselves like Ortiz
There would be more Hassim Rahmans———-See Holyfield fight
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
Ortiz lost a point.
As he should have. If he cut Floyd or stopped him like BoBo Brazil, he should have been DQed.
But he didnt. He did what many others have done before him. He fought dirty and headbutted.
But what Floyd did has very little glorious precedent in elite boxing history. Youy can name other bleak moments but the incidents are thankfully rare.
Fortunately, we will forget this fight because we never really got to see it…and you are only as relevanyt as your last show. But the sponsors, corporations and other key players who are watching to see if Boing had distanced itself from the likes of Tyson and King are not likely to have liked what they saw last night.
And they are the ones that will decide whether boxing gets a greater day in the sun.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
BoBo Brazil
New favorite reference on this site of all time.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Count on us for blasts from the past
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Fortunately, we will forget this fight because we never really got to see it
I don’t think we’re going to forget this fight any time soon, if ever. It was dramatically unique.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Yeah I dont think people will ever forget this
Whether its for the right reasons, or the wrong reasons.
Floyd fights that people forget are fights like Floyd - Baldomir(which his hand was injured but still won decisively)But there was no drama. Nothing to talk about afterwards. Nothing to debate about.
This fight was totally different.
I do wish the fouls wouldn’t have happened because it was an interesting fight. But they did. So, so be it.
But this fight wont be forgotten anytime soon.
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
What, if anything, has DLH said about all this? We know he often says all the wrong things, so I’m curious to see.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
I would be curious to find out
What percentage of boxing fans actually think it was poor sportsmanship.
I’m not big on the concept of sportsmanship. I think people throw it out conveniently to criticize and control. For instance, people criticizing Serena Williams for her so-called “tirade” against the ref. Well, basketball players and soccer players do that all the time. It’s pretty normal. So, I’m not big on that.
What bothers me about the whole incident is that Floyd would want to win a fight against a defenseless opponent. If you are the self-proclaimed greatest ever, so concerned with your so-called legacy, why not establish your superiority cleanly and for everybody to see? Why the need to resort to such tactics?
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
Do you think if this went the distance, would it be that rememberable of a fight?
I think if this fight ended cleanly, Ortiz would have been dominated and we all would be looking forward to PAC-man vs FMJ. This wouldn’t have been a legacy fight. Just another notch on his belt and people giving FMJ little if any major credit for a good fight.
The only way this was gonna be a rememberable fight if Ortiz stood a shot at beating FMJ. And he clearly wasn’t.
Well, it wouldn’t have tarnished his legacy. This incident does nothing to enhance his legacy.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
It also lets future opponents know ahead of time
“I am not your buddy. I am not your friend. While we are in this ring, I’m trying to hurt you, and you should be trying to hurt me too”
“And if you cheap shot me, and think that we’re just going to kiss and make-up 30 seconds later,You’ve got another thing coming”.
Its amazing how fans are hypocrits or atleast not sure what they want. Fans are upset at lack of sportsmanship in Ortiz “Billy Goating” Mayweather, and Mayweather retaliating and KOing him while his hands are down.
But then fans are upset at too much sporstmanship ala Pacquaio vs Mosley. I remember hearing people say: Man, you’re in there to fight, not hug and kiss, and touch gloves everytime you think you may have accidentaly did something wrong.
“People paid to see a fight, not a—— Im not gonna hit you too hard or jump on you when hurt becasue, you’re a good guy and I know you you and your family outside of the ring.
So I guess it falls somewhere in the middle.
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
I am big on sportsmanship. This isn’t life or death, it’s boxing, as life or death as it may seem at times. Sportsmanship is what keeps this thing fun and human and though I’d rather pick neither, I’d rather suffer excessive sportsmanship (Pacquiao v. Mosley) than whatever the hell happened Saturday night.
Serena deserves the criticism because full-grown adults don’t call people they don’t know “ugly inside” and haters. Basketball players and soccer players who whine excessively and flop deserve criticism too. The game they’re playing is a dull, irritating game on top of the game, and it’s not what anyone actually pays to see.
by El Destruyo on Sep 18, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dont look at it as boxing fans
I would be curious to find out
What percentage of boxing fans actually think it was poor sportsmanship
Look at it as Mayweather fans, and non Mayweather fans.
Depending on which one you ask, will determine what answer you get.
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
I’d rather ask the boxing fans than the people who like one of two guys they’ve heard of and seen on YouTube.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but that's the thing
I think everyone who is a boxing fan is either a fan of Mayweather, or not a fan of Mayweather.
I don’t think Mayweather is the kind of guy who people are neutral on.
I don’t know if that makes sense coming out like that?
But I just think he’s the type of guy that you either love or hate.
I just think its human nature to have your likes and dislikes. You can’t help it.
That’s why I think even the most purist boxing fan who claims he is neutral and not bias will still have a strong ,slightly personal opinion especially about a controversial guy like Mayweather.
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
But I just think he’s the type of guy that you either love or hate.
I have neither feeling for him, and am not close to having either feeling either.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
That's very good
But there aren’t that many people out there like you.
Which I’m sure you know already
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
Well, I’ll admit I don’t pay attention to what most “boxing fans” think.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 18, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Granted, boxing is different. The fan base amongst causal watchers isn’t that high. The average watcher won’t know the many nuances of a typical boxing match or other prominent names in the sport.
That being said, they will get most of their opinions about fighters from the general media. Who to hate and who to like. I feel if Mayweather was a more likable fighter the majority of the focus would be on Ortiz. But luckily for Ortiz that’s not the case.
Of course sportsmanship is a part of boxing.
From touching gloves to the end of a fight in which two combatants who tried to kill each other in the ring remarkably hug and congratulate/conole each other, Boxing is a sport of mutual respect.
Floyd love him or hate him has none. Not for his opponent. Not for his father. Not for his elders. Not even for Money. And definitely not for the good name of Boxing.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I have many posts here
And not once did I condone Ortiz and his headbutt.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Does one wrong make a ____?
"Winning is Everything"
Failure is not an Option
If you're not first, you're last
And i think the general consensus is Mayweather is least to blame.
Mayweather was literally born into boxing. He knows all the ins and outs. What he did was not illegal. Cortez gave the okay to come in. And Ortiz is not the ‘brightest star’ and should have been ready to fight, not give a second round of hugs.
That’s got a lot to do with it. The replays I saw didn’t include the “Let’s go” part, but watching it live with 2 others, one a former wrestling amateur champ and boxer, not one of us saw Cortez gesture them to start fighting or hear him say anything clearly indicating that they should restart, although Cortez by all accounts did in fact do so—my point is, it was very unclear to many watching it live, and was likely somewhat unclear in the ring.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I've got to say, in the aftermath of last night, I've come round to being quite disappointed.
Floyd was fighting like we’ve never seen him fight before in those third and fourth rounds, throwing more punches than in any of his previous fights with serious bad intentions. For some reason, he didn’t come out just looking to win a decision – but, alas, it finished how it finished, and we shall never know what might have happened.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
I think it started with the Mosley fight. He has really started to throw his straight right with some bad intentions. He could have toyed with Ortiz but he didn’t seem to want to do that. Floyd had a goal of putting Ortiz on his ass and I guess he did that.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Sep 18, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah – against Mosley he wanted to knock him out, but here he actually took what could be considered relative risks compared to the way Floyd’s fought throughout his career. The combination he opened up the fourth round with was something I haven’t seen really since he fought at 130 and 135 against guys like Corrales and N’Dou. It was very exciting to watch.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Sep 18, 2011 5:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Roach has already pointed out accurately that Floyd's legs aren't the same
That may very well be why he also has started sitting down on his punches. That and the fact that they have not had the same impact they did when he was fighting lower than welter.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I think it’s only natural that his legs wouldn’t be the same as when he fought at 130, but he fought with a different attitude last night. This wasn’t the Floyd who fought Baldomir or Judah or De La Hoya, who did more than enough but took absolutely no risks. Last night, he was really zeroing in on Ortiz, and that was by no means because Ortiz was less of a threat than those other guys.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Sep 18, 2011 5:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you think Oli
Methinks he knew he could. From the minute he watched the Berto fight, he knew that he could beat Ortiz. Nothing at all wrong with that as it is precisely what I think Pacquiao thought when he watched Cotto battle Clottey.
Floyd dent win every minute but heal but controlled the fight. I just wish he had controlled his instincts and let the fight unfold after the point dedction.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I think its partly that Floyd knew he could beat Ortiz, but also the fact that he kind of wanted to put on a show. Floyd must have known that he could have done anything he wanted with a guy like Baldomir, but he wasn’t willing to take the risk. I think there’s pretty good evidence to suggest that the rise of Manny Pacquaio as a superstar – and one who’s truly exciting to watch in the ring – has prompted Floyd to alter his style to some degree, or at least change his attitude. Floyd went after Marquez; he went after Mosley; and yesterday, up until the fight’s ending, he really went hard after Ortiz. I don’t really think Mayweather did too much wrong, but yeah, like you, I also rue not being able to see what might have unfolded in there last night.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Sep 18, 2011 6:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Can Cortez be dis-elected to the Boxing HOF?
"In war, as in prostitution, the amateur is often better than the professional". Napoleon.
It's a fight
If Ortiz was a bad ass and took his point reduction instead of feeling guilty about it he wouldn’t have got knocked out. I just don’t get how many times they were suppose to kiss and hug before they threw punches again. Fighters are suppose to act like fighters in the ring. Nothing else. It was Cortez’s job to punish them for their infractions. Mayweather was angry and made Ortiz pay for his illegal move by using a sneaky legal tactic. Boxers find advantages all the time. Stepping on toes, sticking their thumbs in eyes. If you choose to fight dirty. Be prepared for the response. Ortiz figured he could apologize and the gash he inflicted below Floyd’s lip would disappear. If the fight was ended because that got worse we would be singing a different tune. Ortiz was defenseless but after the first punch protect yourself first!
by tacklerford on Sep 18, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
Retaliation
Floyd retaliated for the headbutt. Nothing more nothing less. The difference is, his retaliation won the fight and that’s what people are peeved about. What if Floyd just retaliated with a headbutt of his own? Would you all be bitching about his lack of sportsmanship?
you just contradicted yourself with your first three sentences.
what Ortiz did was foul and if indeed as you said pbf just retaliated then two sh!ts are the same and with your “nothing more, nothing less” line I cant reconcile it with your next sentence “the only DIFFERENCE….” it made him WON the fight so its more not less. PBF didnt do anything wrong “legally” in boxing rules but in the unwritten rules of sportsmanship its the other way around. the guy has his hands down during a break and you hit him? of course his gonna go down but dont go around expecting adoration.
stone and eggs - no business!
the difference
Was in relation to other means of retaliation i.e low blow for low blow headbutt for headbutt. I apparently left that part out. Either something is unsportsman like or its not. People are on their sportsmanship high horse because mayweather won the fight. People should either be consistent and always be outraged or never be outraged. What im seeing here is sportsmanship matters only because it affected the outcome of the fight not because people believe in the ethical practice of sportsmanship.
by erod on Sep 18, 2011 9:24 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
"What im seeing here is sportsmanship matters only because it affected the outcome of the fight not because people believe in the ethical practice of sportsmanship."
well you do have a point but same is true that if PBF got fatally affected and lost because of Ortiz’s headbutt, I for one would say the same thing, it was crap. PBF is winning in all cards and I dont believe for a second Ortiz has a chance. Ortiz ruined his only chance if he has any and PBF could have put on the show en route of a one sided beating yet he choose to end it in a manner w/c is less commendable. what dawned on me was their prefight predictions. ortiz says he’ll beat floyd and floyd said if u make mistakes you’ll pay for it and the fight wont go to the distance. at the end of the fight most of us can say Ortiz has so much left to give it up like that after what he showed in his fight against Berto, it seemed like he gave up easily judging from the way he reacted after the fight and his over-all demeanor…..was it a gimme? ha ha
stone and eggs - no business!
Hang up the bowtie, Joe
My buddies and I watched the replay of the knockdown almost frame by frame four or five times, with the sound cranked. Cortez screwed up on so many levels after properly levying a one-point deduction to Ortiz for that blatant head butt.
Joltin’ Joe meekly said, “Let’s go,” and brought his hands together, which to me was a signal to continue the fight. But unlike elite refs, he did not do it in a demonstrative fashion with a clear cry of “BOX!” So there was a bit of ambiguity.
And while Ortiz tried to hug Mayweather for the third time after the butt, Cortez looked to the time keeper and said, “Bell ring?” He had no idea if the round had ended.
Meanwhile, Mayweather was throwing his decisive two-punch KO combination.
This was a comedy of errors from Joe Cortez. He has been criticized in recent fights for being over-officious. Tonight he was under-officious.
When was the last time we saw a big fight officiated by Cortez in which he wasn’t part of the post-fight narrative? When was the last time he was forgotten after he raised the winner’s hand, which is the highest compliment that can be paid to a ref who is doing his job properly?
Cortez is past it, big time. He has his spot in Canastota, which is deserved for his earlier work. But like fighters, refs need to know when to quit. As a referee, Cortez is venturing into Evander Holyfield/James Toney territory. He needs to stop.
Kenny Bayless, Tony Weeks or Steve Smoger should serve as the referee for EVERY major pay-per-view. Refs should earn their spot in these major bouts due to recent performance, like NFL officiating crews earning spots in the Super Bowl. These fights are too important to the sport to let someone be the third man in the ring simply based on a reputation that started to tarnish about a decade ago.
Kenny Bayless, Tony Weeks or Steve Smoger should serve as the referee for EVERY major pay-per-view. Refs should earn their spot in these major bouts due to recent performance, like NFL officiating crews earning spots in the Super Bowl.
Agreed. But Nevada downplays this stuff. I’d ask them about Cortez, but I’d get a form response. Same as I did for Russell Mora. I don’t blame them, but it is what it is. Cortez — HALL OF FAMER! — won’t be getting a demotion like Mora did, even, which is basically a touch on the wrist.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Sep 19, 2011 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Dont you see this fight shows the world how to beat Mayweather
Its simple really, punch him when he aint looking! Ortiz should have just pretended to hug floyd and thrown some big shots =P
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