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Carl Froch Going in Front of British Board After 'Fight Fixing' Talk

Carl Froch says he purposely carried a fight into the fifth round in 2005, and the British Boxing Board of Control will have a talk with him about the claim. (Photo by Al Bello/Getty Images)

In an interview with BBC Radio Nottingham, Carl Froch said that he deliberately pushed a 2005 fight into the fifth round to pay off on the bets of others, which will have him in front of the British Boxing Board of Control soon. From the BBC:

"I've done it more than one occasion and it was round five but that's not illegal. I can say, 'right, I'll stop this kid in round five'. If I'm good enough to do that then fair enough. I don't gamble but my brothers and my friends, they did quite well off it," he said.

"I can openly say that because if I'm good enough to step on the gas in round five and force the stoppage then that's my privilege, and that's what I did in this particular fight at the Arena for the Commonwealth title defence."

The fight in question was Froch's bout with Ruben Groenewald. At the time, Froch held the Commonwealth super middleweight title, and was still basically a prospect. This fight likely would have aroused no suspicion had he not talked about it in his autobiography, and spoken up about it once gain.

Star-divide

This is more like points shaving than it is the blatant fixing of a fight, by which I mean it wasn't a predetermined result or an agreement by the two parties or anything. Groenewald didn't know he was going down in the fifth or anything of that nature, and I don't know how you really deal with this, to be honest. We've seen loads of fights over the years where one guy basically carried another, for whatever purpose. I'm sure a lot of people have wound up making money on fights that went to decision instead of being stopped earlier, because someone wanted to get rounds in or whatever it was.

One example, and keep in mind I'm absolutely not saying it was done for the sake of bettors, because I don't believe that it was: Roy Jones Jr vs Tito Trinidad, where I felt personally that Roy clearly carried the fight the full 12 rounds and could have stopped Trinidad had he wanted to do so. He didn't -- whatever his reasoning was, he didn't, or maybe I'm wrong and he couldn't have. But there are lots of fights like that.

Another, more recent example of something similar: Kevin Mitchell blatantly stated before his February 10 fight with Felix Lora that he was looking to get rounds in and wasn't aiming to end the fight early. Does anyone really think Mitchell could not have stopped Lora had he been interested in doing so?

That fight brought to mind another fight for me, which is Victor Ortiz's 2010 win over Hector Alatorre. It was a ridiculous fight to make in the first place, and Ortiz carried it for a full nine rounds before stopping Alatorre in the 10th, completely at his own leisure. That fight didn't have to go past one round if Ortiz didn't want it to, but he got his rounds in, as was his plan. Again, not accusing Ortiz of doing something for the benefit of a betting line. It's part of boxing.

Now, Froch does say that it was to the benefit of his brothers and friends, which opens up the debate further and makes him look worse, of course. If the British board decides to suspend his license, I think he just moves to the States full-time, as he's said in the past he would like to do. Brick said the same thing in a comment earlier, and I have to believe that's exactly what he'd do. He's not going to have his career ended over this, and while there may be an ethical issue here, I don't really know that anyone will believe it to be a shameful act, and I don't see it tarnishing his reputation much.

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I think it's disgraceful.

Did he refund anyone who had bets on him to win in the fourth?

This guy did something similar, and he’s now facing prison:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2102467/Mervyn-Westfield-jailed-spot-fixing.html

So did these three guys:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/pakistan/8855607/Pakistani-trio-Mohammad-Amir-Salman-Butt-and-Mohammad-Asif-face-jail-as-cricket-corruption-is-exposed.html

I can’t see this any other way than this is fraud. It’s insider trading. It’s not performing to your best so as to make money from it.

Why can’t sportsmen just be bloody honest and try their best? I mean, that’s what sport is supposed to be, right? Men competing at their optimum in order to achieve success, not letting up to maximise their financial gain.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

I just posted, drawing that same analogy to insider trading, although I did not draw the same conclusions as you.

Just when ideas fail, words crop up.
--- Goethe, Faust

by DrRck on Feb 20, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Why can’t sportsmen just be bloody honest and try their best? I mean, that’s what sport is supposed to be, right? Men competing at their optimum in order to achieve success, not letting up to maximise their financial gain.

It is not, by any account thus far, his financial gain.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

But his family, which is pretty damn close to being the same thing.

And I’m fairly sure that he’d be guilty of the same charges as those guys in those links, if the UK justice system had the sense to prosecute him.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty damn close isn’t the same thing. Also, there was no guarantee that he’d win in the fifth round. Groenewald could have run around the ring and clinched and done any number of things. He didn’t agree to go down in the fifth, Froch put him away in the fifth and claims he could have in the fourth. Without an actual agreement between the two parties, I’ve no way to guarantee Froch could have put him away in four, and frankly neither does Froch.

I believe Mitchell could have finished Lora in a handful of rounds, but he didn’t want to, stated that before the fight that he didn’t want to (I would have suggested bettors put money down on a Mitchell decision given his interviews) — but I still can’t guarantee that he could have.

I believe Jones could have finished Trinidad at various points. But maybe he couldn’t have.

I know what Froch said is, at best, not very smart to say, but it’s hard to prove anything here, I think. Fighters say all the time what they could have done but didn’t. Given how Froch loosely chatters about, well, anything, I don’t know how stone cold seriously I can take, “Well, my brothers and friends made a pretty penny on it, anyway.”

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no problem with anyone making money on it if it was the genuine result, and Froch had tried to stop him in the 4th.

But Froch admitting he deliberately didn’t try to stop him, and in fact “took his foot off the gas” is ridiculous.

The guy is a disgrace. This is something like Snatch…. “Now whatever you do, don’t knock him out…..”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW7kF7PyPy4

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

A disgrace?

That’s laughable.

If you want beef then bring the ruckus.

by lowellthehammer on Feb 20, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure I’d go as far as “disgrace,” but it’s infinitely shady imo. Other than BLH’s moneyless Pick’em, I never bet. If I did, Froch’s behavior might seem a good deal more disgraceful to me.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

But Froch admitting he deliberately didn’t try to stop him, and in fact "took his foot off the gas" is ridiculous.

This happens all the time. It happened on February 10.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

For financial gain?

Had Mitchell decided to go for it and KO the guy in the 3rd, all he’d have lost is rounds.

I get the ever-increasing feeling that the world is simply this way: that all sportsmen are doing this kind of thing, and it infuriates me. They spend however long working to get to the top of the sport so they can hit that big gambling jackpot by fixing a result.

Whether other people deem that as serious an infraction as I do or not, I consider it to be match-fixing. The result is being manipulated for financial gain at bookmakers expense.

It’s a crazy world when this sort of thing is being defended as ‘not a big thing’.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

For financial gain?

Had Mitchell decided to go for it and KO the guy in the 3rd, all he’d have lost is rounds.

If you had read any interviews with Mitchell prior to the fight, it would have been a very good bet that he was going to go the full 10 rounds, and you could have probably made good money on that considering how bad his opponent was.

I get the ever-increasing feeling that the world is simply this way: that all sportsmen are doing this kind of thing, and it infuriates me. They spend however long working to get to the top of the sport so they can hit that big gambling jackpot by fixing a result.

This is an incredible overreaction.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I refer you to my previous comment:
It’s a crazy world when this sort of thing is being defended as ‘not a big thing’.

It’s fraud. It’s deliberate manipulation of a result. It’s ripping off of bookmakers and of punters who have bet on an honest result.

Only in a world this screwy could you defend these actions as being unimportant.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I refer you to my comment below and suggest you watch the fight.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Fighters go for rounds when they don’t have to all the time, but the assumption is that it’s glorified sparring they’re after, a chance to practice their trade for it’s own sake. It’s boring as hell, and irritating, but not dishonest or a manipulation for anyone’s monetary gain. That’s what makes Froch’s behavior different, and significantly questionable, imo.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

the difference with me re Mitchell/Lora is that he announced both his intentions and his reasons beforehand, whatever you think of them. There was no manipulation of betting intended or any that happened, which is quite different to me than what Froch suggests happened here. No telling what Jones’s reasons were, assume innocent unless proven guilty, and re Ortiz, clearly he was just getting rounds as fighters often boringly do. But Froch was, in his own words, attempting to manipulate the situation for someone else’s gain in a betting situation, which seems very uncool to me.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And anyway, my point stands, whoever stands to gain.

Sport is supposed to be about maximising your abilities, not about deliberately giving something other than your best for gambling purposes.

Maybe I’m idealistic, but that’s my view.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that carrying a fighter is in and of itself hardly “fight fixing,” and I don’t see how it is even “illegal.”

The closest analogy I can think of is insider trading. But, Froch hasn’t admitted to or been accused of betting on himself, so the only questionable element, as in insider trading, is in “associates” benefitted by what should be non-public infor about the corporation’s future performance.

Just when ideas fail, words crop up.
--- Goethe, Faust

by DrRck on Feb 20, 2012 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting

I don’t really see anything wrong with it, but that’s me. It’s up to him if he wants to try and end it in a certain round. If someone takes a DIVE, it’s a different thing, and there’s definitley something wrong with that. But if he wants to turn it up in a particular round and is able to take the other guy out, more power to him. I think alot of boxers probably have it in their gameplan to try and end it in a particular round. If he had publicly said he was going to take him out in round 5 it obviously wouldn’t be an issue, but the fact that he knew his family and friends were betting on it makes it an intersting situation.

by rpm0003 on Feb 20, 2012 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

But if he wants to turn it up in a particular round and is able to take the other guy out, more power to him.

This I would have no problem with.

I do have a problem with a guy turning it down in a particular round and not taking the other guy out.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Roy Jones used to carry people all of the time. There’s no way Julio Gonzalez and Reggie Johnson should have made the distance, and I don’t know how Richard Hall made into the 11th.

by Kory Kitchen on Feb 20, 2012 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

That's the problem

In a way, this is similar to the reasons City College got the death penalty in college basketball for point shaving. On the other hand, fighters carry opponents all the time to get work in, or because they don’t want to take any risks. It happens all the time in boxing, it’s just something nobody should say out loud.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Feb 20, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Personally, I think Jones just didn’t care about stopping people as he got older. He openly denounced the violence of boxing, and I don’t think he wanted to hurt people bad or take the chance of getting himself hurt. Easier just to cruise to a decision.

by Kory Kitchen on Feb 20, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Getting rounds in is legit. Manuevering a result for the financial gain of associates is shady as hell.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Seconded

"Leon Spinks is so ugly that when a tear rolls down his face, it only gets halfway, then it rolls back up" - Muhammad Ali.

by Matt Mosley on Feb 20, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

And for the record

I know it’s against the tenets of the sport, but I do think it should be illegal to bet on yourself to win. Maybe OK to bet on a straight win, but not to bet on an outcome. What happens if someone just happens to see what the fighter bets on himself for? All kinds of opportunity for corruption here.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Feb 20, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Most British sportsmen aren't even allowed to bet on their own sport, let alone their own games/matches.

Ronnie O’Sullivan was reprimanded for trying to back another player to score a maximum break in a match he wasn’t involved with.

Julian Dicks was threatened with police action for kicking the ball straight out of play after selling the time of the first throw-in.

Anyone associated with horse racing as an owner, a jockey or a trainer is not supposed to bet on it at all.

There are loads of examples.

I seriously suspect Froch has broken the law here. In effect, he has defrauded anyone who was betting on the 4th round, anyone who bets a spread on the length of fight, etc….

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I seriously suspect Froch has broken the law here. In effect, he has defrauded anyone who was betting on the 4th round, anyone who bets a spread on the length of fight, etc….

Im guessing you lost your house on that fight with how badly you have taking the news….

And before you reply, I am really taking the piss here

I can understand your sentiments, but I don’t agree with them

by Sweet science on Feb 20, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I actually Have no filter.

by BrianBrock on Feb 21, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s allowed to end a fight anytime he wants. It’s not like he’s throwing a fight, or he’s getting the other guy to give in. It’s the equivalent to boxer’s saying ’I’m going to knock him out in 8’ except limiting your bragging to your friends/family.

I’m not saying its the most ethical thing, but he wanted to train to put in some rounds and then get the K.O in the 5th. There is nothing really saying that he was going to 100% get the K.O victory in the 5th, so it’s not really a huge deal to me. The best he can say to his friends/family is that it’s their best bet to go for the 5th round K.O but he could come up to opposition far exceeding his expectations.

Rivers Runs Red.

by RyanSexton on Feb 20, 2012 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

The potential issue, if the “insider trading” analogy is even vaid (which is not really clear), is the matter of sharing non-public information. However, Ali/Clay, early in his career, was notorious for calling the round in which he would stop a fight, and I would imagine that any number of people began to bet on his public “predictions” because of his early track record.

I think this is a bit of a tempest in a teacup, myself.

Just when ideas fail, words crop up.
--- Goethe, Faust

by DrRck on Feb 20, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

But, to continue, Ali’s public announcements were by definition just that, not private sharing with a few friends and/or family.

Just when ideas fail, words crop up.
--- Goethe, Faust

by DrRck on Feb 20, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd love to know in advance that one guy can't/won't win a fight before a certain distance.

In fact, this is very similar to this:

http://www.africanbettingclan.com/forum/phorum-5.1.15/read.php?3,117340,117358

If you know in advance that a certain result won’t happen, then you can make a fortune from it.

I’d love to know that a guy won’t go for the stoppage inside 4 rounds. I guarantee that if I KNEW that was an impossibility, I could make a life-changing amount of money laying those results on betting exchanges.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

But then what happens in the event of a cut?

A knee injury like Solis endured?

A guy that has completley under prepared and gets Ko’d…..

by Sweet science on Feb 20, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see it as a big deal. So, long as they didn’t predetermine it before hand then it’s okay. There’s quite a bit of examples of a fighter carrying an opponent, this just so happens to be that this was the case, but because of money/gambling reasons.

by TheDemolitionDan on Feb 20, 2012 2:29 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Froch is just a fucking idiot. Why he felt the need to bring this, I’ll never know. So things are best kept quiet

by Eugene Banks on Feb 20, 2012 2:37 PM EST reply actions  

yeah, I just came in here to say the same exact thing, pretty much. If he’d just never said all of this, or just not said it the way he did, we’re not even talking about this and nobody ever cares, and he could say later, “I carried some opponents,” and we’d all go, “So what? Who doesn’t?”

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe, really, it never occurred to him that it would cause a flap even to this degree?

We ourselves seem to be spending half of this exchange discussing how often it probably happens anyway.

Just when ideas fail, words crop up.
--- Goethe, Faust

by DrRck on Feb 20, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

He said it because it strokes his ego, and he wants everyone on Earth to know that he could stop a guy whenever he wanted.

by Kory Kitchen on Feb 20, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. Many people get themselves in hot water because of their need to satisfy that ginormous ego. I, for one, I’m not at all surprised that he would say something like this.

by Apprentice on Feb 20, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right, of course. Also, his huge ego though he could get away with it.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He usually comes across as pretty bright, but this was really stupid. Can’t imagine what he was thinking.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

this is both goofy and interesting.

as Scott says, any boxer can choose to take his foot off the pedal to get more rounds in or whatever. and i guess technically it’s not a risk-free choice, since he could always get caught with something that costs him the fight.

on the other hand, i’m not crazy about the fact that he (or any boxer) could tell friends that they’ll do whatever they can to try to make the fight last X amount of rounds. i dunno if there is an isolated over/under bet in boxing (i.e., one that doesn’t have to be coupled with selecting a winner), but Mike Tyson not getting after Glass Joe until the 6th would seem less-than-right. this damages bettors, but does this truly damage the integrity of the sport? interesting question, I think.

the easiest answer is to not bet on boxing. and if i were Froch, i’d take Rachael with me before the board.

by Sentimental on Feb 20, 2012 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

http://www.oddschecker.com/boxing-mma/boxing/wladimir-klitschko-v-jean-marc-mormeck/winner

Feel free to hover your mouse cursor over the tab marked “More”, just above the big ad.

Here is a link that could have come in handy at the time:

http://www.oddschecker.com/boxing-mma/boxing/wladimir-klitschko-v-jean-marc-mormeck/over-under-4-5-rounds

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

HEY! Just throwing this out there, but if anyone wants to watch the fight, it’s on YouTube.

There does not, to me, appear to be much evidence that he held back in round four any more than he did in any other round. When he gets openings, he goes for them. He’d dropped Groenewald in round three and was totally outclassing him. The referee stopped it in round five, and Groenewald argued the stoppage. It was an OK stoppage — the type that comes in a fight where someone is a 33-to-1 favorite and easily winning.

I mean, gee, is it possible this is less scandal and disgrace than it is Carl Froch talking his usual arrogant shit?

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

Not sure I’d call it a scandal and a disgrace (I didn’t lose any money on it either, easy for me to talk), but it’s certainly shady, and shifty as well.

There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939

by BoxAnne on Feb 20, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You've got it from the horse's mouth that he backed off.

And yet you would rather believe the evidence of your own eyes, as someone who (I assume) is not and has not been an active fighter?

With all due respect, sir, I would rather believe Carl Froch when he says he took his foot off deliberately, than believe some guy on the internet (again, I mean no offence).

I’m sure there is then a counter-argument which says “Ah, but Carl Froch then said he didn’t do that, so you are now selectively believing him to suit an agenda.”

That isn’t the case either. He had no vested interest in saying one of those things, and had to issue a quick retraction lest he get himself in hot water for his previous admission of guilt.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

What I’m saying is Carl Froch loves hearing himself talk. Everything he says here has a ring of Froch’s usual ego to it — “Oh I could’ve stopped loads of fights earlier than I did, but I didn’t. The Groenewald fight, I could’ve stopped it in four, but I laid off and stopped him in five, and hey my brothers and their friends made some money, so that’s good.”

And then I watch the fight with my own non-fighter eyes, which are still entirely capable of sight (no offense), and what I see is that the fight could very easily not have been stopped when it was. He didn’t knock Groenewald out to stop the fight. He didn’t even knock him down to stop the fight.

You know what he said at the time of the fight?

“I took my time and picked my punches because I’ve had surgery on my right hand and didn’t want to over-extend it,” said Froch. “Groenewald was a tough, strong and proud man. Anyone taking those punches and wanting to continue deserves a lot of respect. But I outclassed him from the start.”

Froch’s “admission” smells more to me like Froch’s usual BS conversationalist way of talking about himself, only this time it was something he really shouldn’t have said because it makes everyone get all in a lather about his disgraceful fight fixing (in a fight that wasn’t fixed).

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

If I’m right, then Carl Froch is an idiot who needs to start thinking before he speaks.

If I’m wrong, then Carl Froch is an idiot who needs to start thinking before he speaks and needs to be reprimanded in some way. I don’t know what you do with it, though. Fine him? Suspend him? I still think it’s hard to really prove anything.

I am not certain that I am right, but I have a tough time taking Carl Froch in a radio interview entirely seriously when he’s talking about the greatness of Carl Froch. You should read his book sometime. For one thing, it’s a fairly decent and light read. For another thing, I believe he’s a superhero in his own mind.

David Haye said basically the same thing about his fight with Audley Harrison. I recall no great outrage about that. And in that one, Haye clearly carried it into the third. Even my internet guy eyes could see that.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I recall no great outrage about that. And in that one, Haye clearly carried it into the third. Even my internet guy eyes could see that.

Yours and the whole world….. That was even worse in my book. Look how Groves reacts in the end…. You know he’s thinking about his wallte when he’s jumping for the moon….

by Sweet science on Feb 20, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

hahah

I actually Have no filter.

by BrianBrock on Feb 21, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Even my internet guy eyes could see that.

I really meant no offence. Seriously.

by Olbas on Feb 20, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, I’m just bullshitting. I didn’t take any offense, and know what you mean.

Bad Left Hook
"The internet has undermined professionalism in journalism, which is a good thing." - Bill James

by Scott Christ on Feb 20, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

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