Long winded debate for all to see

OK, so I fully understand Mayweather-Pacquiao type material is frowned upon here at BLH, because everyone is sick of hearing about it. But I guess no one is forcing you to read this.

I got into a bit of a debate with some friends of mine on Facebook, after my friend Marcel posted a video on my wall about Floyd being a duck. After a bit of back and forth debate, I ended up writing a 5000 word response. It was probably a bit over the top but that pretty much sums me up as a person as well. I figured after I put so much work into it, I may as well post it for all to see.

  • James Grills This video is ridiculous, the excerpts from Floyd Sr. and Floyd Jr. are taken completely out of context. They were saying Pacquiao is doping and they aren't willing to risk Floyd's health against someone on PED's. Floyd Sr. Has said heaps of derogatory things about his son anyway, his bad relationship with Floyd has always been very public. He even offered to train DLH for his fight against Floyd and for their proposed second fight. Floyd Sr. is also a crack head, I wouldn't read too much into anything he says.

    In 2010 they agreed to the purse split but negotiations broke down because Pacquiao refused to comply with the drug testing requirements. Then when they were in negotiations to fight in 2012, Floyd gave him a signed contract for a guaranteed $40 mil and Pacquiao turned in down. That would of been twice any of his total earnings from any one fight and that was before his share of PPV sales (which were to be split in Floyd's favour), but Pacquiao declined.

    In the last few months Pacquiao's long time lawyer stated that he is of the belief that Arum and Pacquiao's advisor Michael Koncz, have been ripping him off. He also said that he believes it is primarily due to Arum that the fight hasn't taken place.

    It's interesting how back in the day Floyd was accused of ducking because of his stringent testing requirements but now since the introduction of VADA, strict drug testing is embraced by the fans and is really gaining momentum in the boxing community. It was only the VADA who caught Lamont Peterson cheating after his win over Amir Khan, not the commission. When negations almost broke down between Bradley and Marquez over drug testing no one accused Bradley of ducking. Pacquiao has his ridiculous claims that he has a fear of needles, but I think there is a strong chance Pacquiao was on PED's. The simple fact is, it is very easy to get away with doping with the testing methods the commission use.

    I don't think Floyd was exactly chomping at the bit to face Pacquiao after he KO'd Hatton and DLH, but I also don't think Pacquiao was exactly clean. Floyd may or may not have wanted more than his fair share of the pie, but I do think he was the bigger draw, who could make more PPV sales and bring in more money.

    Because of the recent network- promoter alliances it is harder then ever to make this fight. GBP is exclusive to Showtime and TR is exclusive to HBO.
    As you know, just like with any any other two man who are on either side of the promotional/ network Cold War, a fight between them is highly unlikely.

    Pacquiao hasn't scored a KO victory since defeating Cotto in 2009 and hasn't looked impressive against a notable opponent, since 2010 when he earned a UD over Margerito. He looked average in uninspiring victories over Mosley and Marquez (I believe Marquez won this fight). Then he lost to Bradley and got KTFO by Marquez, a man who couldn't win one round against Floyd. He has had a win against Rios who isn't exactly a world beater and had jumped two weight divisions three fights. I very much doubt Floyd is scared of Pacquiao at this stage, but the fight is not going to happen because of promotion/ network alignments and because of ego's. Unless Pacquiao leaves TR this fight won't happen but chances of that are very slim.

    My point is, the whole situation is far from clean cut. If you want to believe a video, that has been made by a person with a clear agenda to make one man look bad, thats up to you. I prefer to look at it objectively and make up my own mind based on facts.

    I firmly believe neither man are scared of each other. This fight has not happened because ego's and politics have got in the way, plain and simple. There is not just one side to blame, there is clear evidence that both sides have done their part to make this fight not happen. 6 February at 11:52 · Edited · Unlike · 1
  • Marcel Tomé Hahaha jim... as with a lot of liberal government media I bring to your attention, I merely do this to get a rise out of you lol. This is clearly the most biased video on the debate. It hurts my feelings when you suggest that I would take some clever child's YouTube video as gospel. 6 February at 11:39 · Like
  • James Grills @marcel I really don't know why I bother debating with you. You have time and time again shown that you simply cannot look at anything objectively. We can argue till we are blue in the face and you will still see this through the eyes of a Pacquiao fan boy. I may as well debate politics with a socialist idiot, or argue evolution with a christain... No one wins! 6 February at 11:43 · Like
  • Clinton Grills KTFO 6 February at 12:20 · Like
  • Marcel Tomé Jim we aren't debating anything mate ? I posted a video on your wall knowing it's ridiculousness would stir you up.
    I've spoken with you previously about bob arum top rank ( and my hatred for them) about blocking the May PAC fight and agreed with your opinion, as I do with 90% of our boxing discussions.
    Surely you can concede that we agree on much more than we disagree on? Teddy atlas? paulie mallignaggi? that's just our most recent conversation.
    I look at all sides with an open mind Jim. I have told you a THOUSAND times over I am a mayweather fan. But you still don't listen! Is that not the pot calling the kettle black?
    On the rare occasion that I do disagree with you.... It is because like you, I have formed an opinion from my own interpretation of the data available. It is neither true or false. You can't get on your high horse and be a Fascist when someone disagrees with you just because you believe you have the greater subject knowledge... I like our conversations and I hope you will endure this frustration and continue them with me 6 February at 12:26 · Like
  • Clinton Grills Lol 6 February at 12:35 · Like
  • James Grills Lol. You may have told me a thousand times that you're a Mayweather fan, but when you post shit like that on my wall, you're going to wind up in a debate. You wanted a reaction and you got one. Winners all round 11 February at 15:08 · Edited · Like · 1
  • Marcel Tomé You have to bite back after you get a bite don't you ? 6 February at 12:48 · Like
  • Dillon Murphy I'm with Marcel on this one. Floyd is scared. 13 February at 20:25 · Like · 1
  • Jarrod Karadzic Floyd has been a cherry picker his whole career Jim. Pac in contrast has never avoided anyone. Floyd avoided Kostya Tszyu, Margarito, Williams... Not guys that necessarily would have beaten him, but guys that stylistically would have been very challenging.

    He also fought a lot of guys deliberately past prime (Cotto, Mosley and Oscar), and feasted on very weak competition through certain phases of his career (Gatti, shot Mitchell, Baldomir, Brusseles, Corley, etc etc).

    Personally, I think that Floyd beats Pac, and also would have beaten all the guys that he avoided. Unfortunately, we will never truly know.

    I imagine he will probably fight Pac also, but will once again wait until he feels more comfortable, when Pac has faded a little more.

    Pac's legs aren't very good anymore, and a lot of guys are taking advantage of that. Mosley, Bradley and Marquez all used it to their advantage. I don't believe Mosley or Bradley were effective at all, they just neutralised Pac's offense by fighting incredibly defensively, making the fight ugly. Pac overall dominated both guys. The decision against Bradley was one of the worst I've ever seen.

    Marquez just has a terrible style for Pac, that way he comes back with combinations. Floyd in contrast matches stylistically very well against Marquez. You can't out counter punch a better & faster counter puncher! Floyd knew that, hence making the fight.

    It's a shame that Floyd never made these fights, because I'm a fan of his ability... Winning over prime Pac coming off big wins, beating Tszyu, outboxing Marg and defeating Williams, all when their reputations were very strong would have no doubt lifted his reputation above all fighters of the modern era.

    Anyway... Agree with your comments in regards to it not being clear but; I think that Arum interfered significantly. Still, in my personal opinion, it's been driven by Mayweather, not Pac. 13 February at 20:51 · Like · 2
  • Dillon Murphy Jarrod I agree with a lot of your points but I disagree with some also. I am by no means a boxing expert but I feel I have enough knowledge to chime in.

    Mayweather is most definitely my favourite boxer but his record or where he currently sits in world boxing has nothing to do with it. I have the upmost respect for how technically proficient he is. Any sportsman that is savvy and has such a strong IQ in regards to their own craft is always appealing to me.

    I think that the story is not so black and white. Floyd has definitely avoided fight or fought boxers past their prime but maybe not the the extent that you are saying. I think a lot of the reason fights haven't happened or happened when they should have is purely business. In regards to PAC I would say they are equally to blame. This is two of the greatest boxers of all time, thing to put a match together on their own terms. I think the biggest reason the fight has not happened to date is due to both of their enormous egos. Neither fighter wanted to give an inch because in their own eyes they were the best boxer ever to grave this earth. Throw in the fact they had different promoters who were not helping the situation it was the perfect storm.

    It had the potential to be the greatest fight of all time but unfortunately Father Time has bitten PAC. Floyd on the other hand has only gotten better with age but he relies much less on athleticism and more on technically and smarts. 13 February at 22:16 · Edited · Like
  • James Grills This post must be up there, when it comes to average length of comments. I guess I just brought that average down 13 February at 23:06 · Edited · Like · 2
  • Jarrod Karadzic Mate, I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. The weak era in his career I was referring to, was one of the deepest Welterweight divisions of all time.

    I watched boxing fanatically at the time, which was a period before either you or Jim were into International Boxing, so some of the context is probably missed.

    From my perspective, the business decision argument doesn't hold any value, when:

    * Kostya Tszyu was the undisputed world champion, with all 3 major belts in the 140 pound division. There was huge demand to see the fight

    * Prime Mosley and De La Hoya were MASSIVE fights, yet he elected to fight Mitchell (no money or public interest), Bruseles (no money or public interest), Baldomir (no money or public interest) and Corley (no money or public interest).

    * Margarito and Williams were also massive fights, there was HUGE public demand to see this at the time

    In contrast, he fought the weakest opposition possible.

    Then, look at the careers of other great fighters in the same era, and who they fought:

    * Pac fought: Barerra twice, Morales 3 times, Marquez 3 times, jumped a division to fight Hatton, jumped two division to fight Oscar, then took on Magarito, Cotto and Clottey

    * De La Hoya took on prime Vargas, Prime Trinidad, Prime Mosley twice, Prime Quartey, Prime Hopkins

    * Mosley took on Prime De la Hoya twice, Prime Vernon Forrest, Prime Winky Wright.

    Floyd makes a lot of excuses, but ultimately, it just doesn't stack up.

    It's something he's been guilty of his whole career. When you look at the behaviour of both figherts (Pac & Floyd), then analyse the situation, you can see a pattern.. 14 February at 06:11 · Edited · Like · 1
  • Jarrod Karadzic Agree with you about Floyd getting better with age though! He's looked superb in his last few outings.

    A lot of the above you can never really know either... I agree with you in the sense that the promoters cause a lot of issues, and big egos are definitely a factor.

    Anyway.... I've still been meaning to come out and have a beer with you guys next time the fights are on. Be good to watch it with a couple fellow enthusiasts! 14 February at 06:22 · Like
  • Thor Anderson This post is gold, much better than half the shit on bleacher and ring 14 February at 09:12 · Unlike · 1
  • Marcel Tomé At the end of the day this PAC fight probably won't happen. So We will just have to wait till he blows half his fortune over the next two Super Bowls and has to take on a prime Mikey Garcia in 2016 to get absolutely humiliated. 14 February at 11:54 · Like
  • James Grills Thor Anderson, yeah I find those sites attract a lot of idiots who have very little boxing knowledge. They seem to be a breeding ground for racists with very narrow minded opinions. Bad Left Hook is a really good forum that doesn't have any of that BS. You'll have to check out my It's under construction at the moment and should be online soonish. I have a few other guys who will contribute to the site. 14 February at 15:07 · Like · 1
  • James Grills Jarrod Karadzic, I'm not avoiding a response. I have just been out and about, I will set aside some time later. 14 February at 15:09 · Like
  • James Grills Ok sorry I took so long; I had to prepare an important BBQ then I kind of lost interest. So thankfully, the debate seems to have shifted from who is to blame for Mayweather vs Pacquiao not happening, to a career comparison between the two and to whether or not Mayweather has been a cherry picker for his entire career. After writing what looks like a 400+ word response to that ridiculous video, I’m not too keen on debating that any further. If you want to believe that Mayweather is primarily to blame for that fight not taking place, then we can agree to disagree.

    Like you said, I have only been following boxing for as long as you, so I wasn’t on the scene to really know what public demand there was for certain fights. However, I was a casual fan for years and I have been a serious fan for some time. Also, since becoming somewhat obsessed, I have done my best to back track through the modern history of boxing. So while I’m not an expert, I do have some idea of what went on.

    Throughout Mayweather’s career, he has played the role of the villain very well and while most boxing observer’s can’t not appreciate his abilities, they the also can’t help but hate him as a person. It’s this character he plays, that has got him where he is. He is hated by so many people and is widely snubbed as boring, yet he is the biggest draw in boxing and the highest paid athlete in the world.

    While the villain role helps in rake in the cash for Floyd, I also think it definitely alters peoples ability to look at his career objectively. On the flip side you have Pacquiao who plays the good guy so well and is arguably just as accomplished. Because of the strong hate so many people have towards Mayweather, I feel they just can’t help but maniple reality in their minds and fantasize about Pacquiao being the prince that has slain the dragon that is Mayweather. This phenomenon is clearly evident in your response :p

    Another thing that I think really needs to be taken into account when comparing these two men, is the fact that Mayweather was an American Olympian. He was a prospect from the moment he had his professional debut and he has been under the spotlight, with high expectations for his entire career. On the other hand, Pacquiao had his first 34 fights outside of the US. He was successful, but boxers in lower weight divisions, who are fighting outside of the US don’t get too much attention and not a lot is really known about the majority of his opposition outside of the US. Pacquiao put himself on the radar when he fought in the US and he had a lot success in the lighter divisions, but he wasn’t under the same spotlight as Floyd until after he beat De LA Hoya and Hatton. I think some people have a warped perception when scrutinizing the two, because Floyd has been under the spotlight for so much longer and also because of the good guy/ bad guy acts.

    I think you have some completely valid points. I agree that Pacquiao has faced extremely tough opposition and has had an amazing career. I also don’t for one second think Mayweather has always taken the most difficult fight on offer for every fight of his career. However, I think every other modern boxer is in the same boat (including Pacquiao). I 100 percent agree that Mayweather treats his boxing career more like a business than some other boxers and I think he definitely has paid attention to the danger vs reward ratio of his opponents, probably more so than some but I certainly don’t think he has taken the easy road to the top.

    While I do agree with some of what you are saying, I still feel like you aren’t looking at the situation objectively. It seems to me that when you look at Mayweather, you are looking to criticize, but when you look at Pacquiao, you are looking to praise. You are stating certain facts, while leaving others out to suit your argument. In one breath you are discrediting Mayweather for fighting De LA Hoya, Mosley and Cotto past their prime and just plain discrediting him for fighting Corley, Gatti, Baldomir and Marquez. Then in the next breath, you are praising Pacquiao for fighting Morales, Barrera, Marquez, De La Hoya, Hatton and Cotto. In my opinion your argument really doesn’t hold up when you look at those fights and I think you are setting the goal posts in two completely different positions for each man.

    I agree with you that Corley wasn’t the toughest competition that Mayweather could of faced for his 140 lb. debut, but I don’t think it was the worst either. He was still a top 10 Jr welterweight and that fight was setting up a title fight against Gatti. I don’t think you can expect anyone to fight the top dog in their first fight in every division and Corley certainly wasn’t a bum. Speaking of Gatti, I don’t think you can really accuse Floyd of cherry picking there either. Gatti may have been approaching the end of his career but he was a current 140 lb. champ, he was on a 5 fight win streak and he had won 10 of his last 12 fights, those two losses being to De La Hoya and Ward. Following the loss to Ward, he went on to defeat him twice, in what is widely recognized as the best trilogy in modern boxing. I honestly think that you saying Floyd was cherry picking by fighting Ward, is very similar to saying Tim Bradley is Cherry picking by fighting a past prime Pacquiao. They may have been past their prime, but they were still champions and dangerous opponents.

    I believe Mayweather’s first 147 lb. fight was Sharmba Mitchell, which I agree was a bit of a gimme type fight but he was stepping up in weight and he was in negations to fight Zab Judah next, who was the undisputed 147 lb. champ at the time. Whether or not you thought Judah was the toughest opponent at 147 lb. you can’t hold it against Mayweather for wanting to face a man who held three major titles in the division. Judah suffered an upset loss to Baldomir, but he retained one of his titles and the Mayweather fight still went ahead. After defeating Judah in an exciting fight, Mayweather faced Baldomir to unify their titles. Again, I really don’t see this as cherry picking. Baldomir may have been a heavy underdog but he was 19-0-2 in his last 21 bouts, had not lost a fight in 9 years and had just come off back-to-back wins over Gatti and Judah, and he held a major title. Mayweather had no plans to fight Baldomir because he was supposed to lose to Judah. Given the unexpected turn of events, I think that fight 100 percent made sense.

    Juan Manuel Marquez is an outstanding boxer and one of my personal favorites. I find it absolutely mind boggling that you, (a man I believe to be very knowledgeable in boxing) can completely dismiss Mayweather’s showdown with Marquez as cherry picking because of styles. Marquez gave Pacquiao hell in every one of their fights and while officially it is 2-1-1 in Pacquiao’s favor, I see it as 2-2 with Pacquiao just edging the first two and Marquez clearly winning the last two. He has fought a lot of top opposition and is a four-division champ, who aside from his bout with Mayweather has never had a lopsided loss. Mayweather Came off two year retirement and completely humiliated him and didn’t give away one round en route to a shutout UD. I know Marquez came up from lightweight, but that really doesn’t take too much away from it in my opinion. Marquez returned to welterweight two years later and gave Pacquiao a tough fight and in my mind he actually won that fight. It’s easy to dismiss Mayweather, as a bad style for Marquez after Floyd beat the breaks off him, but I think what Mayweather did with Marquez was an amazing achievement.

    De La Hoya and Hatton were career-defining wins for Pacquiao and it was after beating those two guys that Pacquiao was considered Mayweather’s rival as pound for pound king. I think both wins were massive achievements for Pacquiao and I also think it was a massive achievement for Mayweather, when he beat both men 18 months before Pacquiao did. It is absolutely ridiculous that you have said what an achievement it was for Pacquiao to defeat De La Hoya and Hatton, yet you dismiss Mayweather’s win over De La Hoya because he was past his prime and you give him no credit for beating Hatton (who was undefeated when Floyd beat him). If you think De La Hoya was old and past his prime when Mayweather fought him, then what did you think he was when you give Pacquiao credit for beating him 18 months Later? Did he get younger and move back into his prime after Mayweather beat him or do you just have a bias opinion? Again, De La Hoya was nearing the end of his career but he had won six of his last eight fights, he was the 154 lb. champ and Mayweather was moving up in weight to fight him. He was actually on quite a good run leading into the Mayweather fight, with his only losses in last eight fights being a bullshit decision loss to Mosley and a courage’s loss to Hopkins after stepping up to 160 lb. and defeating Sturm for the middleweight title.

    Again you have criticized Mayweather for fighting Mosley when he was old, yet Pacquiao fought him a year after Mayweather had defeated him. When Mosley faced Mayweather he had won seven of his last eight fights, four of which were by KO and he had just come off the back of absolutely destroying Margarito. Mosley was the underdog but he wasn’t washed up, he was a current welterweight champion and was still a top five pound for pound fighter.

    With Cotto, I think there is a strong argument that he was just as dangerous, If not more dangerous, when he fought Mayweather, than he was against Pacquiao. The reality is Cotto wasn’t the same fighter after Margarito destroyed him and both guys fought him past his prime. I still think what Pacquiao did with Cotto was a tremendous achievement but he certainly wasn't against the prime Cotto that everyone feared. He fought him at a catch weight, recently after receiving his first loss in brutal fashion and he was coming off gifted a SD over Clottey in what was a very shaky performance. When Cotto fought Mayweather, he had come off three knockout victories and his last was an absolute masterpiece when he stopped Margarito in their rematch.

    Mayweather wasn’t always the guy who bought the money in and it wasn’t until after he left Top Rank in 2007 and faced De La Hoya that he became a true PPV attraction. Before the De La Hoya fight he only headlined three PPV’s, all of which had sales in the mid 300 thousands. After leaving Top Rank, his PPV with De La Hoya had 2.4 million buys and since that fight, only one event has had less than a million buys, that was the Hatton fight which had 960 000 buys. Floyd received 33 percent of the purse compared to De La Hoya’s, after this fight he became a proven PPV attraction and that was the last time he was a B-side. The reason I point this out is because a lot of what you are talking about is pre 2007, a time when Mayweather was under the spotlight but at that point, he the attraction he became after leaving Top Rank

    I think when you look at the guys he didn’t fight or didn’t fight sooner, the truth is only the people involved really know what happened. For everyone else it just comes down to speculation and opinions. Floyd was calling Tszyu when he was still a light weight and he was calling out Mosley, whether or not he truly wanted to fight them at that stage, we will never know but with the risk to reward ratio that Mayweather offered them at that stage, they could of been looking to let that fight brew so they could get more money or it could of been Arum not letting it happen, both of which are very possible.

    With Tszyu, there was only a very small window opportunity to make that fight happen because their careers where at completely different stages, Tszyu’s career was winding down while Mayweather’s was taking off. Tszyu had his last fight in 2005, against Ricky Hatton, who was his mandatory opponent. After that, he retired so it was pretty hard for Floyd to fight him, considering Floyd only moved up to 140 lb. in 2004 and in that year Tszyu seemed content to rematch Mitchell. I heard Floyd call out Tszyu, but I never heard Tszyu calling out Floyd. It is highly likely that these two would of fought for in a unification bout after Floyd took Gatti’s belt, but Tszyu lost to Hatton and never fought again. I don’t think that there was much of a realistic time when that this fight could of taken place, especially given the obstacles. Floyd fought on HBO and Tszyu fought on Showtime and neither men where a true A side PPV attraction. Mayweather had not headlined a PPV at that stage and while Tszyu was popular in Australia and with hard-core fans, he wasn’t a draw in the mainstream US market.

    Once Floyd got away from Bob Arum in 2007, he probably wasn’t chomping at the bit to fight Williams or Margarito, (I’m pretty sure Margarito was promoted by rum at this stage, Floyd fighting a TR fighter at that stage would have been very difficult to make) instead of fighting those two dangerous welterweights, he stepped in weight to challenge De La Hoya for his 154 lb. world title. A fight that still holds the record for PPV sales and earned Floyd $25 million, which was his biggest pay by far at the time. There is no way you can tell me that there wasn’t public demand for a fight that still holds the PPV sales record seven years later and I really don’t think that fight was possible earlier, when both guys where promoted by Top Rank. In the same year Williams and Margarito fought each other and in Mayweather’s next fight, he faced Hatton who had mauled Tszyu, was undefeated and was the undisputed champ at 140 lb. That is a pretty solid fight in my opinion. Williams couldn’t get a fight with Mayweather or Mosley so he moved up to 154 lb. Williams could have been the better fight but Hatton was up there too. In 2010 Williams wanted to return to welterweight and was calling out Mayweather, Mosley and Pacquiao but none of them fought him so he moved up to middleweight. Mayweather fought Mosley, and Pacquiao fought Margarito. If you want to directly compare those two fights, I think it is fair to say Mayweather was fighting the tougher guy. Like I said before Mosley had destroyed Margarito in his last fight and taken his welterweight title. Pacquiao was fighting Margarito after Mosley had beaten him and after he had been suspended for cheating.

    You have also mentioned that Floyd is ducking Pacquiao, I wasn’t going to go into that any further but I will touch on it briefly. I am not going to accuse Pacquiao of using PED’s but he did move up through the weight divisions very quickly and just walked through guys in an unprecedented fashion. He could of had made the biggest payday of his life and secured his legacy as the undisputed greatest fighter of his era, but he refused to take that opportunity because of drug testing. In my opinion, given the way he moved up in weight and taking the testing saga into account I genuinely feel that the only way he could look more guilty, would be if he failed a drug test. I wouldn’t fight someone who wouldn’t do the test either. I guarantee that if the shoe were on the other foot, everyone would be calling Floyd a drug cheat. Arum is also a massive problem in this situation, Floyd left on very bad terms and he has not fought a Top Rank fighter since he left. You said Floyd will wait till Pacquiao deteriorates further, I think that is ridiculous. Floyd is two years older and at this stage in their careers it is definitely Pacquiao who needs to come to Floyd’s terms. Pacquiao’s contract with TR is up at the end of the year, if he doesn’t resign, we will see the fight. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with waiting for him to deteriorate; it has been politics and both guys ego’s that has stopped this fight from happening. For the entire time both men have been unwilling to concede and meet the other mans terms. The onus is on both of them.

    You are simply not comparing the two guys on a level playing field. It is very easy to paint a bad picture of someone, when you only state certain facts while leave others and add a strong negative opinion. You may not be lying, but it doesn’t exactly reflect realty either. I can do the exact same thing to Pacquiao, that you just did to Mayweather with a cut and paste of what you wrote and a few alterations e.g.

    Pacquiao has been a cherry picker his whole career Jarrod. Floyd in contrast has never avoided anyone. Pacquiao avoided John, Williams, Martinez, Ortiz, Canelo, the entire Golden Boy stable, etc. etc... Not guys that necessarily would have beaten him, but guys that stylistically would have been very challenging.

    He also fought a lot of guys deliberately past prime (Margarito, Cotto, Mosley Barerra, Morales and Oscar), and feasted on very weak competition through certain phases of his career (30+ Asians, Sanchez, Julio, Velasquez, Lucero, Clottey, Rios etc. etc.

    When you look back on Pacquiao’s career, he was Ko’d twice while padding his record in Asia for his first 34 fights. He then had a few fights in the US before facing a shopworn Barerra, who was a 60-fight veteran at that stage. He then fought to a draw with Marquez (who has an easy style) and shortly after that, he went on to fight another great fighter who was approaching the end of his relevant career and was coming off a loss (a Pacquiao specialty, He’s done it 16 times… Morales, Barrera, Clottey, Rios, etc. etc..). Unfortunately for Pacquiao, Morales bounced back from his loss and handed Pacquiao his first loss on US soil.

    Pacquiao would not fight Mayweather because he was asked to do a drug test. He refused to fight Williams in 2010 and instead faced Margarito (after Mosley had Destroyed him and after his suspension for cheating). In 2011-12 he refused to fight Martinez whom calling him out and was willing to fight 154 lb. and instead fought Mosley (after Floyd beat him and he was getting old) and scored a BS decision over Marquez (a fight no one wanted. Marquez looked very bad last time at 147 and he was getting old). All three of these guys were top pound for pound ranked and were very vocal about wanting to flight Pacquiao. There was huge public demand for all off these fights but Pacquiao refused to come to the table.

    In Pacquiao’s next fight he lost to Tim Bradley, this fight was somewhat controversial and there was public demand for a rematch, so he could get his retribution. Instead of rematching the young champ Pacquiao decided to face a nearly 40-year-old Marquez (again, a fight no one wanted) and ended up getting knocked out, face first on the canvas. After a 12-month layoff to clear the cobwebs, Pacquiao faced Brandon Rios, a flat-footed slugger who was fighting a 135 lb. just two fights ago and was coming off a loss.

    Golden Boy has had a very deep stable of 140 and 147 lb. fighters for some time now, but sticking to his trend, Pacquiao has shown absolutely zero interest in facing any of them. He has taken the easy road time after time and instead chosen to make a career out of rapidly jumping up through the weight divisions to grab belts and move on without facing any real challenge, (most likely while on steroids) repeatedly fighting the same worn out fighters over and over with unimpressive results, fighting past prime greats and cleaning up Floyd’s scraps.

    On the other hand you have Floyd Mayweather who is now still undefeated and unquestionably the best pound for pound boxer on the planet. While Pacquiao was getting KO’d by bums in Asia, Mayweather was making noise. Everyone had high expectations of Floyd after his efforts in the 1996 Olympic games and he did not disappoint. In two short years after his pro debut, Floyd had earned a shot at the 130 lb. title against Ganaro Hernandez. He fought brilliantly against Hernandez and got a stoppage win. He would defend that title eight times against tough opponents before moving up to lightweight. Amongst those title defenses he fought the much larger and stronger Diego Corrales, who was undefeated and the betting favorite. Mayweather shocked the world and walked through Corrales with ease.

    Mayweather’s first fight at 135 lb. was against Castillo and it was the first fight that Floyd was really tested. It was razor thin but he managed to edge the decision. This fight is still widely recognized as Mayweather’s toughest fight to date and Floyd knew it was close, that’s why he gave Castillo and immediate rematch. The second time round he took Castillo to school and left no doubt as to whom the better man was.

    Floyd then went on to beat a long list of champions, en route to becoming the best pound for pound fighter in the world, all while rarely being hit with a clean punch. He defeated Gatti to earn the 140 lb. championship, he then took belts from Judah and Baldomir and 147 lb. to become the unified champ of the division.

    In 2007, Mayweather defeated De La Hoya and Hatton in back to back fights. This was a massive achievement, Floyd earned a title in fifth division when he stepped up to 154 lb. to and beat De La Hoya, and Hatton was undefeated and the undisputed champ at 140 lb. After the Hatton fight Floyd retired. After a two-year absence, Mayweather has effortlessly walked through a murderers row of opponents. His first fight back was against Marquez and completely demoralized him while earning a wide UD victory. He then went on to easily defeat Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto, all three men where current champions in the division that Mayweather faced them in.

    Mayweather once again showed the world how good he was hen he faced Canelo last September. In a super fight, that broke the record as the highest grossing fight. There was huge demand for Floyd to fight the young Mexican superstar, but many thought he would avoid Canelo because he was such a big, strong, young champion with good hand speed. Canelo outweighed Floyd by more than 15 pounds on the night, but it did not help him. Floyd was too slick and won easily via controversial MD. Although it was a MD, It was widely considered a one sided fight and most observers gave Canelo no more than three rounds.

    Personally, I think that Pac beats Floyd, and also would have beaten all the guys that he avoided. Unfortunately, we will never truly know.

    I imagine he will probably fight Floyd also, but will once again wait until he feels more comfortable, when Floyd has faded a little more.

    In my example, I have stated facts to support an opinion. However, while I have used facts, it isn’t a very fair comparison at all, and it does not reflect reality. Pacquiao comes across looking like a bum and Mayweather looks like a legend. My summery of Pacquiao in the example is completely outrages, but I feel that your break down is equally as outrages. I may have gone a bit over the top with this, but I feel like you weren’t really giving Mayweather a fair shake. If you are looking at them on a level playing field and you want to say Floyd has fought bums, then you need to say a lot of those Asians and some guys in the US that Pacquiao fought were bums too. If you want to discredit Floyd for fighting Gatti then you need to discredit Pacquiao for fighting Barrera. If you want to commend Pacquiao for fighting De La Hoya and Hatton, then you need to commend Mayweather for beating them first, when De La Hoy was a champ and Hatton was Undefeated. If you want to say Marquez has an easy style than you need to remember that he gave Pacquiao hell in three fights and Knocked him out in the forth fight. If you want to say Mayweather fought Cotto past his prime, then you need to say Pacquiao fought Cotto and Margarito past their prime. If you want to say Mayweather fought Mosley when he was old, then you need to say Pacquiao fought Mosley when he was older. That is looking at the two guys on a level playing field with an objective view. I don’t want to discredit either of them for any of these things, because I think they are all tremendous achievements from both fighters.

    I really don’t think you can fault Mayweather’s level of competition from 2007 on and even before. There may have been a few better fights for him pre 2007 but I think the biggest thing is that Floyd is a victim of his own success. Floyd fights guys solid guys, who if anyone else fought them it wouldn’t be a problem. But after he beats them so easily, people question their legitimacy, then say he should of fought some other guy. Look at Danny Garcia for instance; as he is making his way up he is doing well. He beat Morales, knocked out Khan, rematched Morales and knocked him out, beat Judah and then he beat Matthysse (who everyone thought he was scared of, and was going to Knock him the fuck out). Now he is going to fight Herrera in Puerto Rico, this is not the toughest fight in the world but it is good promotion. Garcia is still not a massive draw at this stage and he has Puerto Rican heritage, so it makes sense to for him to fight Herrera over there. He won’t be able to get a big name fighter to go over there so Herrera will suffice he is still a solid fighter at 140 lb. and he is a slick boxer. This is a great way to sell Danny Garcia to the people of Puerto Rico. Also, when he makes his 147 lb. debut it will most likely be against a top ten contender like Porter, Malignaggi or Guerrero, and then he will probably face Mayweather. There is nothing wrong with his series of fights and he stepped up when he had to. No one can face the boogieman of the division or the best pound for pound fighter, for every fight back to back. It just doesn’t work like that. In time if Garcia becomes the next big thing, people might say oh wah wah, he fought an ancient Morales twice, a glass chin Khan, an old Judah, an over hyped Matthysse, a nobody (Herrera) and light opposition at 147. Then they will probably say he avoided Peterson, Alvarado and Provodnikov at 140 lb. and Pacquiao and Bradley ant 147. It just gets ridiculous.

    Promotion issues, network issues and boxing politics are all very real things. I think you are really underestimating the Impact they have had on Floyd's career. There is a reason Floyd hates Arum so much, and it stems from how all of those things affected his career pre 2007(and even post 2007 during negotiations to fight Pacquiao). When Floyd was with Arum he wasn’t the main man and he wasn’t the draw. There were fights he wanted, that he could not get because Arum was holding him back. Guys like De La Hoya and Mosley where the big dogs and Floyd was getting told to wait his turn.

    I’m not a blind Mayweather fan boy and I can see fault in him. I think there is a case that he lost the first Castillo fight, I think Judah knocked him down, (because Floyd's glove hit the canvas as he stumbled back form a Judah punch) I think he may have avoided Williams and I think at times he maybe could have faced tougher opposition. I don’t hold a huge amount of value on a fighter retiring undefeated and I do have a lot of appreciation for fighters who step outside of their comfort zone and take risks. Joe Calzaghe retired undefeated and no one gives a fuck, whereas a lot of guys who challenged themselves and tasted defeat still go down as greats. In saying that, when it comes to Pacquiao and Floyd think you’re splitting hairs to say one guy has fought tougher competition. And like I said before, I genuinely believe both guys’ Enormous egos and boxing politics has stopped us from seeing the greatest fight of this era. Personally in 2009-2010 I would have picked Pacquiao by a razor thin margin and after that I pick Mayweather, he seems to be getting better and Pacquiao seems to be getting worse.

    I know you are very educated on the topic and I probably haven’t said anything you didn’t already know, but I hope that I have put this forward to you in new angle. Hopefully you can see that you may have been a bit harsh on Floyd were using double standards with the two men.

    26 February at 03:11 · Like

  • Jarrod Karadzic Mate.. there are a few parts to what you've written here that are ridiculous. Reading it, you're letting passion blind you from being objective. I'll post something back shortly, but as said earlier, the biggest thing you are.missing here is the context of boxing when these fights were made. 26 February at 06:02 · Like
  • Jarrod Karadzic So... I'm going to do a breakdown of Floyd's career, and mention the good, bad and ugly.

    He had an olympic pedigree and a boxing family etc etc, Winning the title against Hernandez was a very solid win, albiet, against a guy who was nearing the end of his career, and had already been stomped by Oscar. Still, a good first title to collect.

    His next defense against Manfredy was also solid, and up and coming contender with a good record. At this stage of his career, a decent fight.

    Following this, Floyd has 5 defenses of fairly poor quality, before taking on Corrales, which was a big test.

    This was a huge fight. One of the only fights in his career where Floyd was genuinely an underdog. He won the fight extremely convincingly, and in doing so, picked up one of the best wins of his career.

    After this, he had another gimme title defense, before taking on Chavez and Castillo, two very tough Mexicans. Both very good fights. He beat Chavex convincingly, however won a very disputed decision against Castillo.

    Came back to fight him in the rematch and won a clear points decision. The majority of the boxing world believes that he lost the first fight. Personally, I don't think a loss impacts resume or legacy at all, and I believe that these fights, given the calibre of Castillo, add to his legacy. At this point in his career, it was shaping up very well.

    That disputed decision and near loss though, scared Mayweather. As evidenced by the slew of sub-par opponents that he took on from that point. 26 February at 06:45 · Edited · Like
  • Jarrod Karadzic * Sosa- Huge underdoge with little to no demand

    * N'Dou- Decen fight against an unproven challenger

    * Corley-Very little public interest, not a true top tier fighter. Coming off a loss to Judah

    * Bruselses- Possibly the worst fight of Floyd's career. A journeyman who was Miguel Cotto's sparring partner

    * Gatti- One of the worst Pay for View fights in history. Gatti was a MASSIVE underdog, who no-one gave any chance of beating Floyd. The HBO commentators, Larry merchant in particular, were blatantly disregarding the fight, on their network! Gatti had been stomped by a whole host of b class fighters, and also annihilated by Oscar. His 5 wins which you mention were all against b class fighters, as such, are not relevant in the slightest.

    * Sharmba Mitchell- Shot to pieces, having already been annihilated by Kostya Tszyu. No demand or interest in this fight

    * Zab Judah- Coming off a loss to Baldomir (a journeyman) in which he looked absolutely awful. Little demand given this fact

    * Baldomir- A journeyman and a sham of a fight, absolutely no public interest. You mention his wins, but it's not relevant, because they were against nobodies. This was another waste of a fight.

    The above mentioned fights, represent the pinnacle of Mayweather's cherry picking. During this stage of his career, the surrounding divisions were literally the deepest they have ever been. Containing many dangerous, prime fighters within. There is literally no excuse for his opposition during this phase.

    Moving onto the next.... 26 February at 06:24 · Like
  • Jarrod Karadzic Then, he jumped up to fight Oscar. Once again, this represented the first fight in a LONG time for Floyd that was deemed to be a challenge. Oscar, despite being on the slide, was still the bigger man.

    A good win, albiet not overly convincing. Yet still, a good win.

    Next, he took on Ricky Hatton. However, made Hatton come up to Welterweight for the fight. Floyd by this stage had well and truly settled at the higher weight, where as Hatton had fought his entire career at 140. Once again, a great example of Floyd looking to bend things in his favour. Still, a good win, against a guy he was expected to beat. A top fighter regardless.

    Then Marquez. A fighter, who had never fought above 135 pounds. Mawyeather, calls him out at Welterweight. Once again, when there are bigger fish to fry. Marquez, takes the fight, and agrees to a catch weight of 142. Mayweather, then deliberately doesn't make the weight, to give himself the greater advantage. Against a guy who stylistically poses no challenge. Mayweather wins by very wide UD, however it was a fight that had almost no interest because of the conditions. Once again, the context missing from your post..

    Now Floyd decides to fight Shane, having seen him slide, despite having the opportunity at an earlier stage in his career. Once again, still a solid win, however from a legacy standpoint, not as good as it could have been, because of the time in Shane's career when he fought.

    Victor Ortiz next.... A joke of a fight. Plain and simple, especially for a fighter like Floyd.

    Then, he takes on Cotto. Once again, a fighter he both could and should have taken on when demand was higher, and Cotto was undefeated. Instead, he waits until it's perceived that Cotto had slipped, then calls for it. Still, a very good win for Floyd, however once again, not what it could or should have been.

    Next up, Guererro, once again, coming up from the lighter weight classes. Once again, a huge underdog. Once again, not the calibre of fighter you would want to see the p4p best in the world against.

    Then... Alvarez. A genuine contender, undefeated and dangerous puncher. Great fight for Mayweather, with huge public demand. No issues here, very good career fight. 26 February at 06:37 · Like
  • Jarrod Karadzic Overall, to summarise:

    * Great fights for legacy against Corrales, Castillo, Alvarez

    * Good fights for legacy against Cotto, Hatton, Hernandez,Oscar and maybe even Shane, all diminished slightly due to circumstance

    * Fights that have no impact on legacy- Marquez, Guerrero, Ortiz, Corley, Manfredy, Judah and Chavez.

    * Fights that are considered detrimental to his legacy- Gatti, Baldomir, Brusseles, Mitchell and Sosa.

    Great fights that were legitimately missed, when there was call for it:

    * Prime Kostya Tszyu

    * Prime Miguel Cotto

    * Prime Antonio Maragrito

    * Prime Paul Williams

    * Prime Oscar de la Hoya

    * Prime Shane Mosley

    * Prime Manny Pacquiao 26 February at 06:43 · Edited · Like
  • Jarrod Karadzic I'm out of time, however will post something similar for Pac when I get home. Once again, the context in the similar fights being the key! 26 February at 06:44 · Like
  • James Grills Did you read what I wrote, or did you just skim through? You seem to be completely missing my point. 26 February at 09:24 · Like
  • James Grills

<strong><font color="red">FanPosts are user-created content written by community members of Bad Left Hook, and are generally not the work of our editors. <em>Please do not source FanPosts as the work of Bad Left Hook</em>.</font></strong>

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